Cowstails

[Tubo Longo]

Buon giorno, Renato! Long time no hear.

Nice to see you back again, and thanks for your input.

Buongiorno Jansen, my pleasure being here.

Seen you're an Admin now WOW, and congratulations.

Sorry if my posts, as well as my answers, comes and goes, but recently life has been a bit hectic

[jozef]

Have someone experience with use of repetto fallet (energy absorber) with the cowstail ?
http://www.repettosport.it/catalogo%20g ... na%202.pdf
there was previous discussion here about similar thing from zyper lanyard but repetto-fallet was only mentioned. Al Warild shows his configuration of it in cowstail in Vertical book.
thank you for reply

[Tubo Longo]

The Fallet made by Repetto is described as follow:

REPETTO- FALLET Dissipatore per la realizzazione di longes doppie regolabili speleo. Offre maggiore sicurezza in caso di caduta a fattore 2 o più. Utilizza corde diam. 9.7-10-10.5. Ulteriori spiegazioni alla voce “longes speleo” art. 11175.

"Shock absorber for caving cowstail. It adds more safety in fall with ff of 2 or higher. To be used with ropes in diameter of 9.7-10-10.5 mm. More details under "Caving Cowstail" at art. 11175". The link is: http://www.repettosport.it/catalogo%20generale/Staffe%20corde%20fettucce/Pagina%2018.pdf.

REPETTO- LONGE REGOLABILE Kit composto da: m. 1.70 di corda Beal UIAA/CE diam. 9.7 art. 09022; 1 dissipatore “FALLET” art. 01320; 2 moschettoni Kong UIAA/CE art. 03062; 2 Fast art. 03023. Risultato: longe più sicura in caso di cadute a fattore maggiore di 1, possibilità di regolazione, ingombro del dissipatore inferiore a quello di un nodo.

Translation: "Kit made of: 1.70m of UIAA/CE Beal rope diam. 9.7 mm art. 09022; 1 shock absorber "FALLET" art. 01320; 2 carabiners KONG UIAA/CE art. 03062; 2 Fast art. 03023. The cowstail is safer in a fall with ff >1; is adjustable; the shock abosrber is less bulkier than any knot"

My cent: I remember to have seen some cavers using it, but I don't remember of any talk about it and its use. I know is kinda popular in some areas (grottos?), where cavers like to have an adjustable cowstail or a double one made out of the same lenght of rope.
I personally prefer to have two separate cowstails, a short and a long one, so I never questioned about such gears and their use.

Dasvidanjia Jozef

[Bob Thrun]

The latest issue of Descent mentions a series of tests done on the impact forces by the French, The test report may be downloaded from http://tinyurl.com/2z26mh . I do not read Frebch, but it appears to me that the tests were done by allowing a rigid weight to free fall 30 or 60 mm. If that is the case, the tests are unrealistic for two reasons.

The human body is not a riigid weight. It has more 'give' than the short length of cowstail has stretch.

A caver at a rebelay will not free fall. Most rebalays are close to a wall.

If someone who reads French finds me wrong, please correct me.

Incidentally, the situation at a cowstail is the reverse of the Tarbuck knot. It was claimed that the Tarbuck would absorb or reduce the impact of a long fall by a small amount of slippage.

Bob Thrun

[fuzzy-hair-man]

The latest issue of Descent mentions a series of tests done on the impact forces by the French, The test report may be downloaded from http://tinyurl.com/2z26mh . I do not read Frebch, but it appears to me that the tests were done by allowing a rigid weight to free fall 30 or 60 mm. If that is the case, the tests are unrealistic for two reasons.

The human body is not a riigid weight. It has more 'give' than the short length of cowstail has stretch.

A caver at a rebelay will not free fall. Most rebalays are close to a wall.

If someone who reads French finds me wrong, please correct me.

Incidentally, the situation at a cowstail is the reverse of the Tarbuck knot. It was claimed that the Tarbuck would absorb or reduce the impact of a long fall by a small amount of slippage.

Bob Thrun

There is a mention about this testing and the report on ukcaving one of the ukcavers has done a translation and has a word? document available I've tried to register to ukcaving so I can send him a PM but so far the registration email hasn't arrived. Perhaps ian mckenzie, paul, NZCaver wormster? (I think they're on UKcaving) could PM him and ask for a copy?
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,5754.0.html

[paul]

The latest issue of Descent mentions a series of tests done on the impact forces by the French, The test report may be downloaded from http://tinyurl.com/2z26mh . I do not read Frebch, but it appears to me that the tests were done by allowing a rigid weight to free fall 30 or 60 mm. If that is the case, the tests are unrealistic for two reasons.

The human body is not a riigid weight. It has more 'give' than the short length of cowstail has stretch.

A caver at a rebelay will not free fall. Most rebalays are close to a wall.

If someone who reads French finds me wrong, please correct me.

Incidentally, the situation at a cowstail is the reverse of the Tarbuck knot. It was claimed that the Tarbuck would absorb or reduce the impact of a long fall by a small amount of slippage.

Bob Thrun

There is a mention about this testing and the report on ukcaving one of the ukcavers has done a translation and has a word? document available I've tried to register to ukcaving so I can send him a PM but so far the registration email hasn't arrived. Perhaps ian mckenzie, paul, NZCaver wormster? (I think they're on UKcaving) could PM him and ask for a copy?
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,5754.0.html

I've asked Damian for a copy. I'll let you know ehen he send it to me.

[Wormster]

I've asked Damien as well

[paul]

The latest issue of Descent mentions a series of tests done on the impact forces by the French, The test report may be downloaded from http://tinyurl.com/2z26mh . I do not read Frebch, but it appears to me that the tests were done by allowing a rigid weight to free fall 30 or 60 mm. If that is the case, the tests are unrealistic for two reasons.

The human body is not a riigid weight. It has more 'give' than the short length of cowstail has stretch.

A caver at a rebelay will not free fall. Most rebalays are close to a wall.

If someone who reads French finds me wrong, please correct me.

Incidentally, the situation at a cowstail is the reverse of the Tarbuck knot. It was claimed that the Tarbuck would absorb or reduce the impact of a long fall by a small amount of slippage.

Bob Thrun

There is a mention about this testing and the report on ukcaving one of the ukcavers has done a translation and has a word? document available I've tried to register to ukcaving so I can send him a PM but so far the registration email hasn't arrived. Perhaps ian mckenzie, paul, NZCaver wormster? (I think they're on UKcaving) could PM him and ask for a copy?
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,5754.0.html

I've asked Damian for a copy. I'll let you know ehen he send it to me.

Damian has sent me a copy and I have asked for permission to pass it on to whoever wants it.

[Tubo Longo]

Bob, although I agree the human body isn't a rigid weight, it's also true that the use of a "standard weight" (as stated in the French report) has been a common way to carry on this kind of experiment for quite a long time, as far as I know. Or for that matter even to certify (UIAA, CE, etc) different gear: there's ample bibliography available on why is done this way and how the weight (usually 80 or 100 kgs) was determined to be a valid and correct one.

Also, even if a rebelay is close to a wall, if a caver fall it would likely free fall anyway, exp. in situations like the ones tested by the French in this report.

Last but not least, the fall were not of 30 or 60 mm (about 1 to 2.5 inches), but anywhere between some 30 and 100 cm: that's to say about 1 to 3 feet. Quite a difference, right?.

Let's read the report (35 pages) when Paul will re-post it.

[Bob Thrun]

Last but not least, the fall were not of 30 or 60 mm (about 1 to 2.5 inches), but anywhere between some 30 and 100 cm: that's to say about 1 to 3 feet. Quite a difference, right?.

Let's read the report (35 pages) when Paul will re-post it.

Oops! I got the units wrong. I recalled that cm are not a prefered SI (metric) unit. The preferred SI units go up and down by powers of ten to the three. Similarly, the use of daN had me confused for a while too.

A standard test is valid only to the extent that it realistically models real-world situations. For longer falls, such as might be encountered in rock climbing, the distortion of the slings and body are small compared to the stretch of the rope and may be negleceted. For something like a 300 mm fall, the distortion of the body is the dominant effect.

Bob Thrun

[paul]

Let's read the report (35 pages) when Paul will re-post it.

I've asked Damian, who translated the document about having it posted and his reply was "Forward it by all means but please add the health warning that I haven't proof read it and, most importantly, I have absolutely no permission from the original authors to translate it or distribute it, so would they please not publish it anywhere public at the moment.". I can email a copy if you let me have your email address but Damian is hoping to contact the original authors and have the translated document published on the British Caving Association website soon.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Let's read the report (35 pages) when Paul will re-post it.

I've asked Damian, who translated the document about having it posted and his reply was "Forward it by all means but please add the health warning that I haven't proof read it and, most importantly, I have absolutely no permission from the original authors to translate it or distribute it, so would they please not publish it anywhere public at the moment.". I can email a copy if you let me have your email address but Damian is hoping to contact the original authors and have the translated document published on the British Caving Association website soon.

The translated version of this document has now been posted on the web here's the link:
http://british-caving.org.uk/rope/lanyard_tests_v5.pdf

Thanks to the guys on ukcaving and BCA for the translation and getting permission from the authors etc.

[Carl Amundson]

Let's read the report (35 pages) when Paul will re-post it.

I've asked Damian, who translated the document about having it posted and his reply was "Forward it by all means but please add the health warning that I haven't proof read it and, most importantly, I have absolutely no permission from the original authors to translate it or distribute it, so would they please not publish it anywhere public at the moment.". I can email a copy if you let me have your email address but Damian is hoping to contact the original authors and have the translated document published on the British Caving Association website soon.

The translated version of this document has now been posted on the web here's the link:
http://british-caving.org.uk/rope/lanyard_tests_v5.pdf

Thanks to the guys on ukcaving and BCA for the translation and getting permission from the authors etc.

The v5 link no longer works.
Use the following link for the report.
http://british-caving.org.uk/rope/lanyard_tests_v6.pdf

It is a great report.

[Rick Brinkman]

Cowstail Test Report PDF

A French report(in English) on how cowstails perform during Fall Factor 1 drops and Fall Factor 2 drops.

[Scott McCrea]

Looks like some great testing with loads of useful info on a topic that has bugged cavers for a long time. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to look it over carefully, soon.