Unexpected rescues?

[Ralph E. Powers]

A frog rig and the Croll will be attached directly to the central mailon (It can't be cut with anything less than tin snips and that would be a push) the hand ascender could be cut off but in most cases that is not the problem, in fact it would be easier if it was because it is easier to reach and this means the weight is already off the chest ascender or it has bee disconnected.

Ok that means the rescuer has to put more weight on the hand ascender/safety sling and get the weight off the croll enough to release it then go from there... Which sounds like they'd have to lift the injured caver with (or without) their assistance to get their weight on the safety line. Or am I not getting this?
From what I remember, time is a crucial factor if the patient is unconcious (konked out by a rock or passed out by exhaustion/hypothermia) and the dangers of harness induced pathology from lack of movement to keep blood flowing.
It all depends upon the situation I guess. Something to train for and to brain train for as well.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Ok that means the rescuer has to put more weight on the hand ascender/safety sling and get the weight off the croll enough to release it then go from there... Which sounds like they'd have to lift the injured caver with (or without) their assistance to get their weight on the safety line. Or am I not getting this?

Yep that's it, If the person being rescued is consious they can help release the Croll catch, I don't suppose there is a reason they can't also help lifting by standing with thier own hand ascender and foot loop. The hand ascender is the easy one and can be taken off anytime before changing over to descending.

From what I remember, time is a crucial factor if the patient is unconcious (konked out by a rock or passed out by exhaustion/hypothermia) and the dangers of harness induced pathology from lack of movement to keep blood flowing.

Time is very critical as far I have read. Even when practicing we try to be as quick as possible because it's good practice but also because the 'patient' unless you are pretty quick starts to complain because they are uncomfortable and getting pins and needles in thier legs. Hence my question about why a pickoff would be a last resort as it seems the quickest way to get them off the rope.

[NZcaver]

Time is very critical as far I have read. Even when practicing we try to be as quick as possible because it's good practice but also because the 'patient' unless you are pretty quick starts to complain because they are uncomfortable and getting pins and needles in thier legs. Hence my question about why a pickoff would be a last resort as it seems the quickest way to get them off the rope.

Quicker than being able to release the rope at the top, and lower them down? Of course this would require extra rope at the top, a tensionless hitch or otherwise releasable anchor (Munter hitch?), someone to operate it, and no rebelays... but I digress.

The reason a pickoff might be considered a "last resort" is because you are about to put an additional person (yourself) in harm's way (hope the Shrub doesn't mind me borrowing his catch phrase ). If an environmental issue (loose rock, waterfall, etc) contributed to the original situation, you will have to deal with that as well. You'll be frustrated, the adrenaline will be flowing, and if by chance you make a critical mistake two lives could be in jeopardy. (Can you picture a third person trying to pick TWO people off?) Also despite substantial safety margins, you are about to put a 2-person load on a system essentially designed for 1 person. Not usually a big issue with 11mm rope, but what about 9mm or less?

It all comes down to critical decision-making. If someone gets hit on the head and is unconscious (and can't be lowered from above), I would say don't even hesitate to do a pickoff. But if the person is just tired, disoriented, slightly tangled up or whatever (arguably a far more likely situation) - attempting to talk them through their situation first has definite merits, in my humble opinion.

[Scott McCrea]

NZ is right on with environmental issues. And, what's more, the vic might be frustrated and even embarassed by the situation, which could turn into hostility. Unless death is eminent, it's better to assist than to pick-off.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Quicker than being able to release the rope at the top, and lower them down? Of course this would require extra rope at the top, a tensionless hitch or otherwise releasable anchor (Munter hitch?), someone to operate it, and no rebelays... but I digress.

We have rebelays, we use at least two anchors at pitch heads, I have never seen a tensionless hitch used (I can see one or two places where it could be useful). And a large portion of our pitches have rebelays.

All these mean a lower is out of the question in most cases.

It all comes down to critical decision-making. If someone gets hit on the head and is unconscious (and can't be lowered from above), I would say don't even hesitate to do a pickoff. But if the person is just tired, disoriented, slightly tangled up or whatever (arguably a far more likely situation) - attempting to talk them through their situation first has definite merits, in my humble opinion.

I agree if you can instruct them to sort out their own problem it is much better. It is also much better for their own confidence and caving ability (although there are better ways to learn) and this shouldn't be a priority.
Quite often you can't see what the problem is and they are unable to describe it accurately, if this the case your instructions could either get no where or make matters worse.

I would argue that a rescuer who knows their rig well should be able to sort out just about any tangle to a point where they can at least rescue themselves. The patient has two ascenders and a descender the rescuer if tangled could if needed attach themselves to the patient and take all their ascending gear off to sort out the tangle (not that this should be necessary).
If you were to get hung up changing over to descending you could cut your hand ascender attachment cord (i have a long cowstail I could use in there) (borrowing from Ralph here)
I would acknowledge I have done a rescue (in practice) where I could have used the patients ascenders but didn't think of it, but hey that's what practice is for right.

PS:If there were two people stranded you'd pick one off at a time

[NZcaver]

We have rebelays, we use at least two anchors at pitch heads, I have never seen a tensionless hitch used (I can see one or two places where it could be useful). And a large portion of our pitches have rebelays.

All these mean a lower is out of the question in most cases.

When I made those previous comments, some of my thinking was in respect to an entrance pitch rather than an in-cave one. Therefore rebelays and bolts are not always used - trees and rocks (and the occasional fence post) are frequently your anchors. Now I can't speak for Australian caves, but this is certainly common in the US, UK, NZ, and other places.

Although using bolts, you can still rig a rope with a releasable hitch (assuming you have a rope longer than the drop.) A little off topic, but... abseiling/rappelling instructors frequently do this when using a separate belay line - they can hold on the belay, unlock the main line, and then lower a distressed student using both simultaneously.

As for the rest of your last post - all fair comments. Communication up and down pitches can often be awkward, at best. Maybe if you don't know what's going on, it might be better to climb up and find out. Or maybe not. Your weight might lock up the rope while they're in the middle of trying to change from climbing to rappelling - and therefore increase the problem (and their frustration) exponentially. At least in that particular situation, having a rebelay anchor between you both could actually be an advantage.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I guess I should clarify as well. I was interested in getting an imobile person past a rebelay on the way up. Switching ropes on the way down I get. I guess it would also depend a great deal on the system you were using to haul, but I'm sure there are some baseline stuff that would have to happen. Dunno. Just got me thinking...

I have been thinking about this, it would be highly dependant on the length of thier cowstails and things and may not work. It would also rely on a reasonably large rebelay loop, but:

you do the pickoff attaching the patient with thier short cowstail as this means thier Croll is closer to you and easier to reach to release it. You head up the pitch to the rebelay, if possible prusik high enough to clip in thier long cowtail to the rebelay point and down prussik they should now be hanging off the rebelay point with only your own weigth on your ascenders.
Now try passing the rebelay as usual (clipping your long cowstail into the rebelay point).
Once over the rebelay acsend as normal until you are carrying the patients weight then unclip them out of the rebelay.
The things that could make this fail:
-Thier long cowtail won't reach the rebelay point
-Once you have slack on thier short cowstail the rebelay loop may not be deep enough to allow you to transfer your ascenders.
-rebelays that go side ways quickly are going to be difficult almost no matter what.
-Their short cowstail (attached to your central mailon) doesn't allow you enough freedom of movement to change over to the next rope in this case the patient is safe hanging off the rebelay anchor so you could probably disconnect and reconnect after you have passed the rebelay.

Any thoughts Note: you would have to have a very definate reason for wanting to go up with a patient (there is just no alternative, no hauling gear, and by the time a rescue gets there it's too late, very close to the top of the pitch)

[shibumi]

In what way is the rescuer being put at risk? gear tangled? hung up performing the changeover (biggest risk I can see).

My answer to these would be the rescuer needs to know thier capabilities ie how heavy a caver can you get off rope? Also there is enough gear on the patient and rescuer that IMO the rescuer should provided they are resourceful and physically able to perform the rescue be able to sort out just about any problem (unless I am missing something). (I use a frog rig so this is IMO simpler and less complicated but in the end you should know your own rig well enough to sort out any tangle).

I have to disagree with the last resort, I agree if the patient is still able to sort out the problem themselves this is the best approach, but once the point has been reached where they need assisitance they are probably exhausted and starting to be at risk of HHS as you have said you can get a patient off rope in as little as 2 - 3 minutes, can you get a Z rig or other suitable hauling or lowering rig set up and the patient off rope in that time? I'd doubt it (but don't know for sure, I certainly couldn't).

Do you have any other rescue techniques at your disposal? what would you try before attempting a pickoff?

I know my capabilities because I practice all of the time. I teach these skills all of the time. I know what the average person's skills and abilities are for the same reason, and those skills and abilities simply are not there. If you teach a person a pick-off, you cannot ensure that they will be able to do it under duress six months later when they have not practiced. This isn't theoretical for me. I see, all of the time, highly competent cavers who cannot perform a pick off in training settings when they were taught the previous year at NCRC. Been seeing this for years.
Heck, there are instructors who cannot do it without a few practice attempts first.

A few years ago there was a death in a waterfall of a caver. His friend tried to do a pick off, twice, and almost died in the attempt. 8 months later he came to NCRC and we watched him do a textbook perfect pick off. He hadn't been on rope since his friend died.


It's great the you are confident enough in your skills that you'll always be able to handle the situation. Most people are overconfident in their skills and this is one reason that NCRC teaches that a pick off is the last resort. Once you give someone a neat tool, they want to apply it to
all situations. Unfortunately, a pick off is one of the more dangerous tools with which most people don't practice enough to be as skilled as you are.
Personally, I'm pretty confident in all of my skills, both in SRT and rebelay technique. I still view a pick off as a last resort. I think that the only time I am likely to perform a pick off for real is if someone is actually unconscious while on rope, as this is the main time when seconds actually count due to HHS. I have never not been able to assist or talk someone else through a problem, even a lot of folks who are exhausted.

Anmar

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I know my capabilities because I practice all of the time. I teach these skills all of the time. I know what the average person's skills and abilities are for the same reason, and those skills and abilities simply are not there. If you teach a person a pick-off, you cannot ensure that they will be able to do it under duress six months later when they have not practiced. This isn't theoretical for me. I see, all of the time, highly competent cavers who cannot perform a pick off in training settings when they were taught the previous year at NCRC. Been seeing this for years.
Heck, there are instructors who cannot do it without a few practice attempts first.

I definitely agree, practice is essential, I know myself if I haven't been to SRT practice lately I get slower and less efficient. We run practice SRT sessions every week. It really annoys me when people expect their skills learnt 6 months or a year or so ago to be as fresh as when they learnt them and want to go on a trip. You are going to be hanging your life off a rope it only seems sensible to me that you practice and do it properly /rant

A few years ago there was a death in a waterfall of a caver. His friend tried to do a pick off, twice, and almost died in the attempt. 8 months later he came to NCRC and we watched him do a textbook perfect pick off. He hadn't been on rope since his friend died.

I can't say what I'd do under pressure as that situation arisen, but frequent training and practice would help. (Similar to first aid training I imagine). I'd also say there are two types of people on rope (in my experience) those who will learn SRT by rote and those who learn the rules that can't be broken and then are able to think their way out of a problem etc. The first group if they encounter which is unorthodox or outside their experience are often stuck and need prompting what to do. The other group are able to adapt their learnt techniques to each situation. I would much rather go vertical caving with the 2nd group (I'd also consider myself in this group). These are the group where if a pick off goes wrong they should be able to at least rescue themselves.

It's great the you are confident enough in your skills that you'll always be able to handle the situation. Most people are overconfident in their skills and this is one reason that NCRC teaches that a pick off is the last resort. Once you give someone a neat tool, they want to apply it to
all situations. Unfortunately, a pick off is one of the more dangerous tools with which most people don't practice enough to be as skilled as you are.
Personally, I'm pretty confident in all of my skills, both in SRT and rebelay technique. I still view a pick off as a last resort. I think that the only time I am likely to perform a pick off for real is if someone is actually unconscious while on rope, as this is the main time when seconds actually count due to HHS. I have never not been able to assist or talk someone else through a problem, even a lot of folks who are exhausted.

The subjects of trials into HHS were fully conscious, but not moving and lost consciousness due to HHS in as little as 6 minutes (if I recall correctly) these people were fresh before the trial. An exhausted caver should be assumed to have even less time from when they stop moving.

The point I was trying to make that having tried to talk them through their difficulties and failed (for whatever reason) a pickoff would be my next option unless there had been made special provision for a rescue being necessary (lower system set up or a spare rope).
In most (pretty much all) cases the option of a lower is just not available here, once it has reached the stage where a physical(rather than verbal) rescue is necessary then a pickoff to my mind is the only option (given that rebelays and our pitch head rigging ie double anchors would seem to rule out a lower)

The only lower option I might see is to remove some off the less necessary rebelays above the patient but this will only 'buy' you a metre or so of rope each rebelay so they would want to be close to the ground.