Best way of doing tandem climbing.

[hectorcal]

Hi, i want you guys to help me out on knowing which is the best way to do tandem climbing..

I was reading some techniques on the book "On rope"(1992) on page 183 and the questions is on this quote "the two climbers should move about the same speed" and then "After a breather, they can both climb up to the top at the same time or alternate climbing. In either methods the two climbers should stay within 30 to 40 feet of each other"

My questions are: Using a frog system (1)should we climb the rope at the same time, no matter if we are doing it at different rates or speeds?, (2)should we climb at the same time, i mean doing the same movements, or (3)is it better to alternate?

thanks..

[hank moon]

Hi, i want you guys to help me out on knowing which is the best way to do tandem climbing..

The best way to climb "tandem" is to use rebelays. TAG-style tandem can cause problems such as:

TC: Difficulty passing lip
TC: Difficulty reversing ascent if necessary
TC: Increased chance of accidental ascender disconnection
BC: Severe crotch pain when frogging

Others?

Though tandem rope climbing is part of U.S. caving culture, it should be discouraged (esp. for beginners) along with other questionable techniques such as rappelling through waterfalls. No offense, but if you have to ask about this on an online forum, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

[ian mckenzie]

Hank's right - rebelays and frogging go together well. On a long stretch of unrebelayed rope, I'd just wait till my partner is done before starting up.

But if you must... frogging induces more rope bounce than ropewalking, so I'd alternate - one ascends while the other rests.

[Scott McCrea]

Lots of people climb tandem with ropewalkers. Not many climb tandem with frogs.

Really good tandem ropewalkers that can climb at the same time and coordinate their rythem can actually get a boost with each step from the other climbers bounce.

On long climbs, it's nice to have someone to talk to.

Motion sickness is possible.

Climbing together or alternating is personal preference. But, if climbing together, both climbers are in good shape, have good technique, have climbed together a bunch already and traditionally use ropewalkers.

This one time, in Ellison's Fantastic Pit, I ropewalked with a frogger below me. It sucked.

[cob]

This one time, in Ellison's Fantastic Pit, I ropewalked with a frogger below me. It sucked.

I once got stuck on the bottom of Fantastic for 14 hours (the water falls were flowing and the wind was howling) because 2 "froggers" tried to tandem out on 600' of Bluewater. Murphy was in studied attendance that day as the problems snowballed into an avalanche of difficulties without end. We never did go "caving".

Thank God I had a spaceblanket and carbide that day.

tom

[rchrds]

I've only had to do it a couple of times- once at Fantastic (ropewalkers) and once at a 1200 foot pit in Mexico (ropewalkers). Both times we alternated climbing, just cause it was kind of annoying to me to climb while the rope was bouncing from the gal above (or below). Some advocate climbing at the same time, but I dont really see the advantage- if it is really long enough to tandem, you will have to rest sooner or later, and that is a good time for the other person to climb. If you must do a frog (it's the only thing I use, except for VERY long drops) then I wholeheartedly agree with the rebelay position- I think lots of people in TAG do silly rope tricks to avoid simple rebelays that would allow for lighter ropes and easier and faster travel...

J

[chh]

If frogging I'd definitely alternate. Ropewalking I've done both ways. But Hank is right, tandem climbing introduces an additional set of problems if something goes wrong on rope. If you've got the time for everyone to go solo, why introduce potential complication?

If you do it, pay attention to your rigging, particularly if you are the top climber and try to anticipate where you might have trouble at the lip. I've never had that much of a problem with lips, I think long sloping pitches where the rope rests against the rock for a ways are worse. Think about it before you get there with the weight of an additional person below you.

Another reason to stay close to your partner is that if something DOES go wrong, you can communicate and you can upclimb/downclimb to aid or assess the situation, or go for help. Climbing/downclimbing past another climber is complicated and aiding someone else on rope is even more complicated and dangerous for everyone involved if you don't know what you're doing. Keep this at the front of your mind and adjust your behavior accordingly.

I once got stuck on the bottom of Fantastic for 14 hours (the water falls were flowing and the wind was howling) because 2 "froggers" tried to tandem out on 600' of Bluewater. Murphy was in studied attendance that day as the problems snowballed into an avalanche of difficulties without end. We never did go "caving".

Thank God I had a spaceblanket and carbide that day.

tom

I've heard this story before. 14 hrs. Bluewater. I think I might know someone else who was with you that day. Seems too coincidental, unless that particular scenario is common. I waited for a spell down there myself hiding in my industrial garbage bag. Luckily it wasn't a torrent that day, and it wasn't near 14 hours. I stayed mostly dry and warm. There was a pretty cool graph paper drawing in the log book that MUST have taken a long time. Zat you?

[cob]

I've heard this story before. 14 hrs. Bluewater. I think I might know someone else who was with you that day. Seems too coincidental, unless that particular scenario is common.

Let's see- they were from Indiana, the gal on top got sick about 30 feet above the floor when the lower one climbed up to her, neither one knew how to down climb, I had to climb/pull the stretch out of the rope to show the lower one how, then repeat for the upper one (who was sick)(fortunately she didn't throw up on me, that would have made it all worse), then the lower one began to climb again (elapsed time getting them off rope: 1 hr?), 2 1/2 hrs later she finally reached the top,....

There was more, much more, like when my partners tried to rig our rope from the natural anchor (the Indiana folks had the bolts), it was 20 feet short, and my partners could barely hear me yelling up...

There was a pretty cool graph paper drawing in the log book that MUST have taken a long time. Zat you?

no... I was too busy trying to keep warm, and sleeping (a habit of mine at bufoon sumps).

tom

[chh]

cob, that sounds like a royal fustercluck. I'm an electric caver, but I would have been pining for the that generator had I been in your position. I don't know any Indiana cavers, and the guy who told me about his wait was from Atlanta. Maybe a different trip. Walkie-talkies work surprisingly well in there and take a lot of the guess work out. Especially, I would imagine, if there were other groups there too. A good friend of mine got a little nauseous on that climb once climbing tandem, but it wasn't bad, she was able to continue climbing. That, and she knew what to do on rope had she had to retreat and also had done the climb before solo.

hectorcal, I haven't looked at "On Rope" in a while, but does it mention getting nauseous on longer climbs? I think from cob's story you can see why tandem climbing is potentially a more serious venture than just a simple time saving technique. Change-overs, downclimbing, and pick-offs are things you'll want to know before you attempt it. Just in case. In cob's scenario, with two climbers only 30 feet off the ground, 2 quick changeovers would have put them both on the ground in a matter of minutes, rather than an hour.

[Phil Winkler]

I suspect the nausea was simple motion sickness that can result when you are moved involuntarily and with no notice or control. It is car sickness or sea sickness. I know the few times I tandemed that it was a disorienting experience to feel the rope moving as someone else climbed with you. It was much better when we synchronized our efforts.

[shibumi]

I suspect the nausea was simple motion sickness that can result when you are moved involuntarily and with no notice or control. It is car sickness or sea sickness. I know the few times I tandemed that it was a disorienting experience to feel the rope moving as someone else climbed with you. It was much better when we synchronized our efforts.

I am very subject to motion sickness, so if I'm going to tandem more than a couple hundred feet I take half a dose of dramamine which seems to take the edge off it. My very first tandem experience, lo these many years ago, was in Fantastic with someone climbing 3 knot prusik below me. I damn near puked on him. I like tandeming on longer drops not only to save time, but it's nice to be able to take a breather while my partner climbs, and I get someone to talk to.

I will say that tandem climbing is not something that should be done by two novices. The person on top should have considerable experience, especially in problem solving and dealing with the lip.

[Ralph E. Powers]

I've tandem-ed several times in the past and haven't had too much difficulty except for the first time I did it... coming out of Neilsen's 315 foot entrance shaft. We were way too far apart from each other and thus caused all kinds of problems.
The next time was much better... stayed literally on each other's heels. Both of us were using a double bungee rig so there was not too much bounce. Beneath us were two froggers, they had a more difficult time. One of them never tandemed before and didn't understand the english caver's terminology of "one on and one off" method of tandem. But they created so much bounce that the rope started wearing away where as before it never did.
Now these deep pits are euro-rigged and thus as soon as one person crosses a rebelay the next person gets on and so forth. I rather go UP this way but not going down. Gimme a straight single drop any-day.

Tandem climbing doesn't have to be all that tedious, especially if it's practiced well in advance and the climbers don't upset the other's rhythm. They should be close enough together to communicate without shouting (waterfalls excepting), and from my experience should climb roughly at the same time and resting at the same time (the bottom guy won't have too much choice if the top guy wants to rest).
Being close together also helps in getting over difficult lips. The bottom person should be watchful for ledges close to the lip to help get their weight off the rope without getting "off rope". I've done this before and allowed the rope to slide through my handled ascender by holding the cam open with my thumb but not opening it completely. When the call of "off rope" came the cam locked tight again and slack was taken up before putting my weight back on the rope and finishing my ascent.

[caverd]

There have been only two times I've experienced any issues with climbing tandem with someone. I don't frog, I use a rope walker. One problem was in Moses Tomb on BlueWater rope. My climbing partner was very choppy with his steps and the BlueWater rope is stretchy anyway. That about made me sick. My second bout with a tandem problem was in Golandrinas with a sick climber above me. I didn't rush him because I didn't want him throwing up all over me. It took us 1-1/2 hours to climb out and he drank all my water!

I've tandemed in unison and by taking turns. For me, it depends on how well each pair climbs together.

[Uncle Muddy]

I've enjoyed tandem climbing with alot of folks. A few with whom I've shared a rope caused some regret. They were all climbing on a frog and COULD not keep the rope from bouncing even when offerred my partially digested Pay-Day bars. Hanging out while resting in the dark, feeling that bead of sweat running down your face, and listening to the grunts filling the void beneath yourself is a good thing. Even better, snuff your light and imagine that kernmantle kissing the chert node you rigged past. Ahh, adventure!

[l lambert]

I think from cob's story you can see why tandem climbing is potentially a more serious venture than just a simple time saving technique. Change-overs, downclimbing, and pick-offs are things you'll want to know before you attempt it. Just in case.

"Change-overs, downclimbing and pick-offs" are something you need to know whether you are climbing tandem OR single. Sounds like most of the problems had are caused by lack of ropework knowledge and not the tandem aspect. In other words....they were in trouble already! Leo