Why ATC's are not good for caving.

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Why ATC's are not good for caving.

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Sep 14, 2006 4:17 pm

I've a friend (no it's NOT me) who insists on using his ATC for the caving rappels that we do together. I've tried explaining why they're not such a good idea because of the occasional mud and grit and wear on the biner rather the device itself.
Need help on other good solid reasons why a bobbin (Stop/Simple) or a rack is better to use for caving.

Thanks
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Postby hunter » Sep 14, 2006 4:45 pm

I climb a lot so I use an ATC frequently but almost never caving, these are main reasons:

Wear, not so much on the biner (I use a steel one) but on the ATC. Especially because wear directly affects the strength of the ATC which makes me nervous (a stop wears on the bobbins, affecting the friction but not the strength of the device)

Heat, on a 30meter rappel on climbing rope an ATC gets pretty warm, I don't want to think about a 100M rappel.

Difficulty of threading, climbing ropes are soft and a 10.5 can still be a pain to put into the ATC. A crusty 10.5 or 11 caving rope is really tough, especially with gloves on. It's also much easier to drop an ATC.

The only real time I use an ATC is when doing high leads (climbing) in caves. If I need to do a pull down afterwards the ATC is lighter than a rack and works when I put the rope around a formation (as opposed to using bolts or something where a blocking knot works). I'm usually rapping on climbing rope in this case as well.

Anyway, just my reasons...
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Postby volica » Sep 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Hunter is right. Once I tried rappelling with ATC on 40' cliff. Problem #1 put it on the rope. Pain in the ass to place it on not-so-stiff 11 mm rope.
#2 I weight around 160 lb and technically i had to feed rope thru almost constantly.
#3 Hot, hot, hot!!!!!
#4 After one rappel BlackDiamond's ATC is worn out.

IMHO If you want something cheaper than bobbin or rack, get figure 8 descender.
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Postby hank moon » Sep 15, 2006 10:24 am

hunter wrote:I don't want to think about a 100M rappel.


It gets pretty dang hot on a 100M rap using 8 mm rope...but with fatter, stiffer rope it (theoretically) won't get as hot.

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Postby chh » Sep 15, 2006 1:02 pm

I would think after any regular use at all in muddy/sandy caves the reasons not to use an ATC with 10.5 or 11 mil caving rope would be obvious. Wear, "stuffability", etc. Everything that's already been mentioned. I used my ATC in a multi-drop cave trip ONCE because we were hauling around a lot of rope and survey crap, even though none of the drops were that deep at all. I wanted to be as light as possible. I didn't have a Stop then so it was a full size 6 bar, my climbing ATC, or a Münter. Started to turn the edges on my ATC into knife blades. And I had to get a new ATC after than trip for climbing.

While I personally think a tube style device superior to a figure 8, I won't get back on my "I hate the 8" horse. I'd still like to see a tube style device made for caving though, with the openings more suited to dirty 11 mil static rope, and probably made out of steel itself. You probably wouldn't really save that much weight over a stop, but I imagine it would be cheaper to produce/buy, and have applications in pull down trips and canyoneering. Something designed like a BD ATC XP to reduce the edging that I've seen on regular ATC's, sold as a package deal with something like a Petzl Freino for additional friction options. (See pictures below).
Petzl's Pirana made a stab at this, but the reason why I don't own one is because I don't like the twist an 8 puts in the rope. I think a tube style device designed for caving with someway to have a little variable friction would be better. But no one's made one yet. I guy can dream though, right?


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Postby hank moon » Sep 15, 2006 2:21 pm

chh wrote:Something designed like a BD ATC XP to reduce the edging that I've seen on regular ATC's


Hey, check this out:

http://rockclimbing.com/articles/index. ... ow&id=2201

Scroll down to the DMM V-Twin...

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Postby chh » Sep 15, 2006 3:24 pm

Scroll down to the DMM V-Twin...

:kewl:

I'd read that review before but glossed over the fact that they were making it out of stainless steel. That's pretty sweet. 8-10.5 though. I bet a caked up 11 mil is still a PITA to stuff in there. But I'm sure it'd work.

A step in the right direction if you ask me.
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Postby hank moon » Sep 15, 2006 4:07 pm

chh wrote:8-10.5 though. I bet a caked up 11 mil is still a PITA to stuff in there.


sure, but who's using such elephantine cordage?

Oh...sorry. :oops:

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Postby NZcaver » Sep 15, 2006 4:23 pm

hank moon wrote:
chh wrote:8-10.5 though. I bet a caked up 11 mil is still a PITA to stuff in there.


sure, but who's using such elephantine cordage?

Oh...sorry. :oops:

Why most of the caving elephants in the this part of the world, of course! :tonguecheek: (Including myself, most of the time.)

I have to agree with everyone else - the ATC is not so good for serious caving. But I've seen some crossover climber/cavers use them on a few short drops, like chh mentioned. I have one myself, not that I really use it. At least it's more linear than a figure 8, but it's still primarily a belay device - not a descender.


So Hank - how is Petzl doing with making a stainless version of the Freino? :question:
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ATCs

Postby GoHighGoDeep » Sep 29, 2006 7:17 pm

I love my ATC for climbing... but then i'm using 10.5 dynamic rope... not 11mm pit rope.

Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that Pit rope is usually a heck of a lot stiffer than dynamic rope. The bend an ATC puts in the rope is pretty severe and makes feeding pit rope (especially maxwear pit rope) through an ATC pretty difficult. If you're using a thinner static rope, the sheath of the rope is still usually going to be a lot 'rougher' than the dynamic ropes that ATCs are meant to be used with, particularly with the mud issues mentioned before.

I've got a pirana that i use for short drops while caving... i'll even carry it when i'm toting my rack or stop, if i know that there's going to be a mud-coated fixed rope that used to be 11mm, but is now more along the lines of 15-16mm. Just a heck of a lot easier to manage for short drops, IMHO.

If you've got the means to, you might rig up a drop test apparatus to scare the living crap out of him by drop testing his ATC... or not... that would be cruel
c'mon, you can fit through that
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Postby hank moon » Sep 29, 2006 9:05 pm

NZcaver wrote:So Hank - how is Petzl doing with making a stainless version of the Freino? :question:


Ha ha...doubt that will happen. Anyway, the "Handy" by Raumer is a much better supplementary braking device than the Freino - works almost too well!

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Postby NZcaver » Sep 29, 2006 10:56 pm

hank moon wrote:
NZcaver wrote:So Hank - how is Petzl doing with making a stainless version of the Freino? :question:


Ha ha...doubt that will happen. Anyway, the "Handy" by Raumer is a much better supplementary braking device than the Freino - works almost too well!

Ha! :-) Funny story... A couple of years ago I was placing a phone order for the Handy, when I was informed about Petzl's new Freino. So I ordered that instead - for about twice the price, of course! Guess I should still get myself a Handy some time...
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