Frogwalker questions

[Dangerjudy]

Anyone on here using a frogwalker? Could you describe your setup?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I have tried one,

I it was my normal frog setup with a Petzl Pantin on my right foot.

It worked well (I have only tried it at ropework practice so far) but it took a little getting used to.

Things I found:

It seemed more natural for me to transfer my hand ascender from my right hand to my left hand and grasp it around the top with my left hand. My right hand I used to grip the rope. This way I raise my right hand and right foot together similar to the way you would climb a ladder. Other people seem to lift the opposing hand and foot together try it for yourself and see what works best.

You'll have to have your chest ascender looser than you are used to when frogging as the frogwalker stands you more upright.

I liked gripping the rope with my hands as otherwise the upper half of my body would tend to lean back. The true ropewalker rig generally (as far as I know) has a Gibbs or chest ascender at shoulder height to prevent this but it is no huge concern.

The Pantin releases by kicking your foot backwards, so try to remember to bring your foot up in front of you and not behind otherwise it is likely to disconnect when you don't want it to.

Getting started on the rope when there is little weight of rope below you can be a bit of a pain but after about 1 - 2 metres it's not a problem.

My first instincts were to try to take large steps but start out working slowly and take small steps you will get more fluid later.

If you haven't got a Pantin try to borrow one from somewhere to give it a go. I do like the idea of the Pantin being easy to kick off the rope as this will make it very easy to convert back to a frog when you want to pass a rebelay etc. Putting the Pantin back on the rope takes more time though.
The hybrid system does get up the rope is a fair bit quicker though which probably makes it worthwhile on pitches with greater than about 20 metres (60 foot) between rebelays I'd guess, otherwise connecting the Pantin possibly looses you time.

Hope it helps

Have a look at:
http://www.caves.com/7ASCENT.pdf Page 14 of the pdf or 95 as number on the page. This describes a hybrid frog ropewalker.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Have a look at:
http://www.caves.com/7ASCENT.pdf Page 14 of the pdf or 95 as number on the page. This describes a hybrid frog ropewalker.

That is such an awesome publication... wish I'd known about it before... Wow.. cool!

[Steven Johnson]

It seemed more natural for me to transfer my hand ascender from my right hand to my left hand and grasp it around the top with my left hand. My right hand I used to grip the rope.

You should be very very careful about this... hand ascenders used in the "wrong" hand can be really dangerous; the release lever isn't designed to be exposed to the rockface and might open unexpectedly.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

It seemed more natural for me to transfer my hand ascender from my right hand to my left hand and grasp it around the top with my left hand. My right hand I used to grip the rope.

You should be very very careful about this... hand ascenders used in the "wrong" hand can be really dangerous; the release lever isn't designed to be exposed to the rock-face and might open unexpectedly.

This is why I grasp it at the top with my left hand. The cam or open side of the ascender is still facing me so that it is not exposed to the rock-face and so I can visually determine that it is working correctly.

[ian mckenzie]

I it was my normal frog setup with a Petzl Pantin on my right foot.

Perhaps I am OTL but I think that adding a Pantin does not make a frogwalker. It is still a frog system. I thought a frogwalker involved the addition of a full ascender which then changed the ascending style altogether (something the addition of a foot Pantin does not do...). The Pantin is not rated as a full ascender i.e. does not 'count' as a point-of-attachment, all it does is pull the rope thru your croll.

Yes? No?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I it was my normal frog setup with a Petzl Pantin on my right foot.

Perhaps I am OTL but I think that adding a Pantin does not make a frogwalker. It is still a frog system. I thought a frogwalker involved the addition of a full ascender which then changed the ascending style altogether (something the addition of a foot Pantin does not do...). The Pantin is not rated as a full ascender i.e. does not 'count' as a point-of-attachment, all it does is pull the rope thru your croll.

Yes? No?

OTL? What does that mean ?

Your right the Pantin is not a full ascender, the way I used the Pantin I keep all of my frog setup still connected so I am just as safe as if I were frogging. In this regard I don't need the Pantin to be a safety item. This also means I am totally free to connect or disconnect the Pantin at anytime. There is no real need as far as I can see to add a full ascender. I don't know that I'd trust the strapping around my ankle to hold if the other two ascenders failed anyway. If this happened you would be hanging upside down by your ankles and the ascender would be upside down, a situation which doubt a manufacturer would guarantee their product to work.

The ascending style is (or at least can be) the same as a ropewalker rig at least as far as I know.

The point of the Pantin is you can stand up on that foot with one leg pushing yourself up the rope, just because it is not safety rated does not mean that you cannot put your weight on it. As you stand up on the Pantin the Croll on your chest will move up the rope so the Croll won't take a shock load should the Pantin fail. The only practical difference to a rope walker in my (not so experienced) opinion is that the Croll(or whatever) for a ropewalker should ideally be higher than it is for the frog rig this means that with a 'frog walker' the user will have to hold their body close to the rope rather than this being done some-what by the chest or shoulder type ascender.

Petzl's info on the Pantin is here:
http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/B02%20PANTIN%20B02500.pdf
This also illustrates that the Pantin can be used to pull the rope through on frog style ascending.

I have only used it a couple of times (I had the lend of one) so I don't know everything about it or how it is best used but they struck me as a useful bit of gear to take on trips where you are likely to encounter long pitches.

PS the rope walking picture in Petzl's pdf shows the hand ascender held in the right hand but this means that the right hand cannot be moved up when you raise the right foot, which seems counter intuitive to me.

Maybe we should call it a Kermit system as he is the only frog I've seen that can walk.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Al Warild in Vertical(the pdf I linked to at the start) calls it a Frog-Floating Cam System. This is probably more accurate than comparing to a ropewalker as the ropewalker as described there has knee, shoulder and foot ascenders, the only common one being the foot ascender.

The section about the floating cam describes modifications you could do to the foot ascender (as it is not required to be life supporting) which seem to be basically what Petzl have done to make the Pantin.

ie lashed to the foot and doesn't use bungee/shock/elastic cord or a pulley system.
unwound spring to let the rope move easier - The Pantin has 2 springs a weak one to let the rope go through the Pantin easily and a stronger one that takes effect as the cam swings further out which tries to stop the Pantin coming off rope.

[hunter]

Hey all, thanks for the interesting posts on this system. A question for anyone who has tried it, is it possibly worth the 70$ for the ascendor? I kind of like the idea but the price seems steep since all the other ascendors around cost less...

James

[NZcaver]

...A question for anyone who has tried it, is it possibly worth the 70$ for the ascendor? I kind of like the idea but the price seems steep since all the other ascendors around cost less...

It's all a matter of personal preference. I suggest finding someone who has one, and trying it out.
Wow - I didn't realize they were almost $70 now! (Actually $67 RRP.) I got mine when they first came out, and they were around $55(?) I think. I found them as low as $63 on line, but you get whacked $9 for shipping - http://www.allhandsfire.com/

For what it's worth, I only use mine *occasionally* - usually when I let other people try it! It's not a bad device, but it takes some getting used to. I generally use it to help feed the rope tail in a both-feet Frog motion, rather than using a walking motion. I suggest if you do intend walking with it, you adjust your handled ascender's footloop/safety lengths and maybe use an additional chest harness with a roller. But I guess that wouldn't be a Frog system any more, would it?

[ian mckenzie]

OTL? What does that mean ?

Out To Lunch.

The Pantin was developed as an assist to the Frog system, duplicating the effect of someone at the bottom holding the rope for you, or you trapping the rope between your own feet as you 'stand'. It does not materially affect your ascent style when used in that manner; you still frog with both legs moving together, it is just easier.

The frogwalker is a frog ascent system that can be converted, by the addition of another tool, to a ropewalking-style system, where each leg lifts the body separately, as in climbing stairs - you all know what I mean. Whether you use a Pantin or some other tool to do this conversion is a matter of preference I suppose.

Point is, the mere addition of a Pantin to a frog system does not make a frog walker. It is the manner in which it is added that makes the distinction.

As for whether it's worth the cost - depends who you ask, and where/how you cave. Froggers here seem split on whether its worthwhile or not. As for frogwalking, I'd prefer a full ascender for the third tool, except if I already used a Pantin with my frog I'd be tempted to reuse it in the frogwalker. Tho that's speculative, as I don't own a Pantin, and don't particularly want/need to frogwalk.

[Don Feathers]

I've been using a frogwalker system for about the last 6 months. I cave at least once a week or more. The way Petzl shows it, is way too strenuous for me. (I'm pretty strong) The way it is shown in Alpine Caving Techniques does work though. (pages 162-164) This is how it was shown and taught to me from someone who has been using it for a couple of years. I didn't like the pantin at first, until I learned to tilt my foot upward. Now I use one on everything over 50 feet.

The frogwalker system Alpine Caving Techniques describes, uses a footcord with a knot tied a little below knee level for a carabiner. You bring your upper ascender down (still attached to the cowstail) and hook the biner next to your knee to the bottom of the ascender. Take a bungee cord and hook it to the back right side of your harness and stretch it over your left shoulder down to the top of your knee ascender. Attach it with a mini biner so the rope doesn't rub against it. The croll will sorta act as chest harness if it's pulled pretty tight. The croll, along with your arms pulling on the rope, works up to about 100 feet for me. More than 100 feet, I had to add a chest harness.

With this system, at anytime, you can switch back to frogging by unhooking the biner at the knee and reattaching your upper ascender above you. Or vice versa. It is much easier if you can get someone to show you the setup. I make it sound more complicated than it really is. Neversink is a perfect example. You want a ropewalker till you get to the lip, then frog the lip.

If you add a chest harness and get everything adjusted right, it works as good as any ropewalker system. It allowed me to have a ropewalking system by adding a few pieces of gear to my frog system. Now I can tailor my climbing system to any cave.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

With this system, at anytime, you can switch back to frogging by unhooking the biner at the knee and reattaching your upper ascender above you. Or vice versa. It is much easier if you can get someone to show you the setup. I make it sound more complicated than it really is. Neversink is a perfect example. You want a ropewalker till you get to the lip, then frog the lip.

I believe that the hybrid ropewalker frog shown on this webpage is the one your using ? Down the bottom under the title "The 'Caving Supplies' Combination rig"

http://wasg.iinet.net.au/srt/srt.html#ropew

I had forgotten about this frog hybrid
I still prefer being able to just add the Pantin because there is very little you have to do to convert between rigs. The other thing is that should the chest ascender fail with the hand ascender being at your knee and the attachment point being at your harness the hand ascender is subject to a fall factor greater than 1 (did I calculate right?) so make sure it has dynamic rope attaching it to your harness !
I found (again not much experience) that it was no great hassle to slide the hand ascender up with the left hand and it fitted in with a natural step climbing movement. Still it makes you wonder why Petzl didn't design the Pantin for the left foot instead of the right

[Don Feathers]

Yep that's pretty close. Switch a basic for the handled ascender and use a biner on a corded footloop, so you don't have to mess with the loop under your boot.
Good points on the low ascender attachment. Most of the time a chest roller is used with it, but anything can and probably has happened. We all at times probably trust our equipment too much.

[paul]

The Pantin was developed as an assist to the Frog system, duplicating the effect of someone at the bottom holding the rope for you, or you trapping the rope between your own feet as you 'stand'. It does not materially affect your ascent style when used in that manner; you still frog with both legs moving together, it is just easier.

Many cavers I know here in the UK have tried a Pantin when frogging and swear that it's the best thing since sliced bread!

I mean when using a normal Frog setup with the left foot in the footloop from the top jammer and the Pantin connected to the right foot (as it is designed to only fit the right foot).

The pros are:

1) The rope is pulled through the chest jammer once the first few feet have been ascended so you needn't bother having the rope held beneath nor trap it between your feet until enough rope has been climbed for its own weight to take over.

2) You actually stand up much straighter when using the Pantin which is more efficient and makes ascending noticaby easier and faster.

3) It is easy to disconnect the Pantin when needed just by kicking your right foot backwards. If you find that this happens too easily, you can clip a snaplink carabiner through the small hole to stop the lever opening too far.

4) It offers an extra foothold when getting off at the top of a pitch (especially around here where there are many old mine shafts which are at ground level).

5) It can be used as a spare jammer when another fails - by clipping a snaplink carabiner through the small hole to prevent the lever from opening. You can then use the Pantin as the top jammer and revert to normal Frog method.

Cons

1) Cost.

2) Until you have practiced enough, it comes off the rope easily. Not a safety issue as you are still connected to the rope with two jammers, as per the normal Frog method. Just a pain.

3) Its a bit of a pain when passing deviations (called "redirections" in the US?) as you have to detach the Pantin from the rope and re-attach once past.

4) It could be a problem in a very tight vertical pich if you raise your right leg too far and cannot kick backwards to detach the Pantin nor reach down and detach it.

Try one and you'll buy one!