Descender's carabiner

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Hi all!

I use the carabiner, the one to reduce the velocity, on the screw-lock carabiner's descender and not on the "delta".

How many of you use this way to descend?

I hope it's clear, I don't know the english words of speleo tools.
But I can show you some pictures.

Thanks.

[NZcaver]

I use the Petzl Freino.

You're saying that you connect your braking carabiner (velocity reducer) to your descender attachment carabiner, not to the seat harness maillon (delta) - right? Is your descender a Simple bobbin or Stop?

Do you find this easier/better than connecting the braking carabiner directly to the seat maillon? I've seen most people do it that way, so I'm interested to hear why you do it differently.

[Ursus Spelaeus]

I use the Petzl Freino.

I've seen this freino, but only in a photo.

You're saying that you connect your braking carabiner (velocity reducer) to your descender attachment carabiner, not to the seat harness maillon (delta) - right?

Exactly!

Is your descender a Simple bobbin or Stop?

I have a simple descender.

Do you find this easier/better than connecting the braking carabiner directly to the seat maillon? I've seen most people do it that way, so I'm interested to hear why you do it differently.

The way I said is called in Italy "a roman method".
In my speleo course the teachers said us tu connect the braking carabiner in the descender attachment carabiner.
So, I always descended in this way.
Some weeks ago a french caver died, using the other way (connecting his braking carabiner in the seat harness maillon, as the head of the descender entered in the braking carabiner...
What can you tell me about it?

[NZcaver]

Very interesting! Is there an accident report on-line that you could post a link to?

Yes - having the head of the descender jam into the braking carabiner would result in an almost-total loss of friction. I presume that's what happened to the French caver. Alpine Caving Techniques (English edition) describes this on pages 44-45. If the rebelay below you fails, with a caver on rope, the sudden weight on the rope below you could cause this to happen. Raumer invented the "Handy" - a very small, stainless steel carabiner with a V-groove in one end - especially to avoid this. (I don't own one of these - yet. They're hard to find here.)

The book also mentions a down-side of the technique you're using. You have to lift your braking hand higher to be effective, which can be awkward and tiring.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Do you have a picture of the Handy ?

I had thought about using a brake krab that looks like one of these:


The size of this krab should mean that even if the head of the bobbin was able to get to brake krab it would be pretty hard for it to fit through.

However they are NOT rated for humans as far as I know...
They are rated to with stand 2500kg(~25kN) though so ought to be strong enough...

Dimensions are 102mm x 58mm uses 10mm rod and the gate opening is 15mm. It's made of stainless steel. There is a version using 8mm rod rated to 1600 kg the gate opening of 13mm might be a little tight.

This guy is selling them for climbing Which I am quite sure they are not intended for.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/10mm-Stainless-Steel-Captive-Wire-Gate_W0QQitemZ260003011914QQihZ016QQcategoryZ1299QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

[NZcaver]

Do you have a picture of the Handy ?

Why, yes I do.

It seems they are back in stock at IMO (in the US), for $17 each - http://www.caves.org/imo/carabiner.htm (scroll down)

That carabiner you posted looks interesting, assuming your seat maillon fits into the little hole. Once it's on, at least there's no danger of "accidentally" removing it. If this is actually rated to 25kN MBS, it should be fine at least for a braking carabiner. Wonder how much this thing weighs, and who makes it and rates it?

Regarding this eBay listing, I'm not sure what he/she means by using these on climbing anchors so the bolts don't wear out. Anchor bolts and hangers generally all have a closed eye, so there's no way to connect the small end of this carabiner to them anyway (without using yet another link). Odd.

You should get one, try it out, and post your findings.

[potholer]

On the topic of the Handy, does anyone know what the twisted metal loop that [sometimes] comes with the Handy is for?

Basically, it's a welded ring, twisted so that it can be used to raise the position of the Handy without causing it to change position by 90 degrees as would happen if the ring was flat.

As far as I can see, the ring can either be used to simply raise the position of the Handy, *or* to allow the Handy to be used upside-down, since the ring is thin enough to fit in the narrow end of the slot.
I'm not sure what advantages raising the Handy would have.
Inverting it would seem to give the possibility of either less friction than the wedge-slot provides, or being able to clip onto tyroleans, etc, as one might with a conventional steel braking crab.

*Apparently*, from the gossip I'd heard, the ring was a sufficient mystery to cause at least one entity in the UK supply chain to simply put the rings on one side, quite possibly for fear someone might do something daft with one.

[paul]

I've tried using a Handy a couple of times. It seems to grab the rope as you raise it to increase friction producing a jerky descent (I use Petzl Simple). So, I've gone back to using a "normal" steel krab for braking.

Mine didn't have the extra ring Potholer refers to but I have seen them included with the Handy in one shop here in the UK.

[paul]

That carabiner you posted looks interesting, assuming your seat maillon fits into the little hole. Once it's on, at least there's no danger of "accidentally" removing it. If this is actually rated to 25kN MBS, it should be fine at least for a braking carabiner. Wonder how much this thing weighs, and who makes it and rates it?

Surely a *braking* carabiner (which is only used to bend the rope around a surface to provide friction) doesn't need to be *that* strong? The upper limit of force applied must be limited by the force you are able to pull the rope up with?!

[paul]

I use the Petzl Freino.

I've seen these and they seem to be a good idea (if somewhat pricey).

How durable does the braking part appear to be? I thought they were made of alloy and would soon wear through on the braking surface?

How do you find the screwgate locking function? Is it affected by mud and dirt (I seem to end up in the most muddy caves around!)?

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Very interesting! Is there an accident report on-line that you could post a link to?

If I'll find it, I'll post the link.

[hunter]

The size of this krab should mean that even if the head of the bobbin was able to get to brake krab it would be pretty hard for it to fit through.

However they are NOT rated for humans as far as I know...
They are rated to with stand 2500kg(~25kN) though so ought to be strong enough...

This is very similar to the Fixe steel anchor biner which is made for climbing anchors(see link below). The price is better though, the Fixe's are almost 20$.
I'm curious, is there a really good reason to want steel? These things are really heavy so I'd think a small aluminum biner would be better...

Regarding this eBay listing, I'm not sure what he/she means by using these on climbing anchors so the bolts don't wear out. Anchor bolts and hangers generally all have a closed eye, so there's no way to connect the small end of this carabiner to them anyway (without using yet another link). Odd.

This shows how these biners are generally used in a climbing anchor(these are also done with chain):
http://www.fixeusa.com/sportanchor.htm
Bolt/hanger is a bad wording choice in the ebay listing. What he means are lowering anchors like metolius rap hangers (These are large hangers you run the rope directly through) or anchors like these:
http://www.fixeusa.com/super.htm
Given enough usage the rope will eventually cut through this type of lowering station and if the bolt is non-removable you have to put in a new anchor/bolt.

The upper photos on this page show an example of this happening on some coldshut anchors which cheap climbers use for anchors(this is a bad practice!): http://infohost.nmt.edu/~climbing/weakestlink.html

Hunter

[potholer]

I'm curious, is there a really good reason to want steel? These things are really heavy so I'd think a small aluminum biner would be better...

Ally is better for friction, but much worse for wear.
After some year's use, including summers caving on gritty fixed ropes, my steel braking krab has a groove worn in the Stop-side of its top that is about 2mm deep at its worst. That'd probably be the equivalent to writing off several aluminium crabs.

I find it nice to have a steel krab as part of my kit for sliding along fixed ropes (using cowstails for backups), and even for clipping into the odd cable. There's much less wear, and in those situations, less friction can be a real advantage.

[NZcaver]

Surely a *braking* carabiner (which is only used to bend the rope around a surface to provide friction) doesn't need to be *that* strong? The upper limit of force applied must be limited by the force you are able to pull the rope up with?!

Technically true, but what if that carabiner gets used for something else - either accidentally or out of necessity? Like during a rescue, or to replace other gear which is lost or damaged?

This is the same reason most of us use rated carabiners on our pack tethers.

[NZcaver]

I've seen these and they seem to be a good idea (if somewhat pricey).

How durable does the braking part appear to be? I thought they were made of alloy and would soon wear through on the braking surface?

How do you find the screwgate locking function? Is it affected by mud and dirt (I seem to end up in the most muddy caves around!)?

The Freino braking carabiner works well. They are alloy, and they are pricey. Surprisingly mine hasn't worn down as fast as I would have expected, but I'm usually on clean-ish ropes. Expedition caving on fixed ropes could be a whole different story. I haven't found the locking mechanism to be a problem, but again - I haven't recently been crawling through real muddy, gritty caves with it.

How often would you remove that carabiner during a trip anyway? Even when taking the harness on and off, that carabiner pretty much always stays attached to my seat maillon with my Stop attached to it. Unless I'm actually using it, I just swing the Stop over to the side of my harness and hook it there with a small bungy to keep it out of the way.