Rigging with slings

Discuss vertical caving, equipment, & techniques. Also visit the NSS Vertical Section.

Moderator: Tim White

Postby speloman » Jun 20, 2006 1:48 am

I agree Rigging isn't anything you should be in a hurry with. I usually take my time and double and tripple check and have somebody else check it too. Can't be to safe in my opinion plus someone may see something I missed or vise versa. Before I get online I always check the rigging even if it was done my the most experianced rigger in the group and I am sure most of you do to. Most people I know don't get offended my me checking their rig and I never get offended either. I actually encourage it.
Justin Gleason 48217RE
:looking: If you can't grow it, I mine it.
User avatar
speloman
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Sep 9, 2005 4:02 pm
Location: Elko Nevada
Name: Justin Gleason
NSS #: 48217RE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Northern Nevada Grotto
  

Postby NZcaver » Jun 20, 2006 1:56 am

speloman wrote:I agree Rigging isn't anything you should be in a hurry with. I usually take my time and double and tripple check and have somebody else check it too. Can't be to safe in my opinion plus someone may see something I missed or vise versa. Before I get online I always check the rigging even if it was done my the most experianced rigger in the group and I am sure most of you do to. Most people I know don't get offended my me checking their rig and I never get offended either. I actually encourage it.

Always! :exactly: :wtg: You can check my rigging any time... :wink:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6316
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CCG
  

Postby Tubo Longo » Jun 21, 2006 6:53 pm

I don't see any problem either in using webbing, provided they're tubular, of adequate diameter and tied with a water knot.
And not only for tree rigging but for in cave rigging too. In many cases the webbing slides around a rock, protusion or whatever else with less problems and sits better on the rock than a rope. They 're standard rigging gear in Italy.
Tubo Longo
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Apr 25, 2006 3:09 pm
Location: near Tacoma, WA
Name: Renato
NSS #: ex 29271
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CGEB SAG CAI of Trieste [Italy]
  

Postby chh » Jun 22, 2006 9:14 am

I carry slings and webbing with me all the time. I rig with them frequently. I use the tensionless and plenty of padding when I have time to kill or if I'm at a well known cave and the popular rigging tree is obviously suffering because of use. I've never really seen a water knot slip either. Even after they were tied dry and loaded wet and vice versa. And the beer knot may be time consuming, but it sure is cool....no?
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
User avatar
chh
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Oct 4, 2005 3:21 pm
Location: asheville, nc
Name: caleb
NSS #: 55745
  

Postby hank moon » Jun 22, 2006 9:50 am

Tubo Longo wrote:I don't see any problem either in using webbing, provided they're tubular


Does this mean you think there's a prob w/flat webbing? If so, what?

hank
User avatar
hank moon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 9:52 am
Location: Salt Lake City
  

Postby Tubo Longo » Jun 22, 2006 10:23 am

hank moon wrote:
Tubo Longo wrote:I don't see any problem either in using webbing, provided they're tubular

Does this mean you think there's a prob w/flat webbing? If so, what?

Yes. Provided the terms I'm using are correct and I'm not doing any confusion with the translation, as far as I know if a flat webbing get dented might, under load, snap broken in an heartbeat, while a tubular webbing at least takes a much longer time, if ever snap broken (given the same amount of denting on the same size webbing, of course).
Have to add that because of this reason I have never seen using flat webbing while caving, at least in Italy, if not in manufactured foot loops.
Tubo Longo
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Apr 25, 2006 3:09 pm
Location: near Tacoma, WA
Name: Renato
NSS #: ex 29271
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CGEB SAG CAI of Trieste [Italy]
  

webbing

Postby GoHighGoDeep » Jun 23, 2006 10:40 am

lots of good points brought up...

Sewn slings definitly need to be inspected and checked every time they're used... that said, they're a lot lighter and, i believe around the same strength as 1" tubular webbing tied with a water knot. Much easier to stuff in a pack with your rigging gear than that 25 foot length of 1" webbing too...

As for having sewn slings that are long enough, i usually carry a couple of double lenght and single length slings with me in my pack... and if they aren't long enough to reach around a tree, i can simply girth hitch them together! quick, easy and sure beats screwing around trying to adjust webbing lengths and knots. I still always have 35' of tubular webbing in my pack as well...

I've seen 2" tubular webbing... i think i even own some. But I've never used it for rigging.... there's a point where it just becomes excessive. I've used 11/16" webbing for rappelling on when climbing quite a lot... of course, i haven't had to ascend on it. That said, it would probably be more than adquate.

chh know's my affinity for slings and webbing when rigging... and it is certainly faster than doing a tensionless wrap...just takes an extra 2 minutes on the way out to work out a fig-8 that's been loaded.

Oh... someone mentioned backing up a fig-8... and i'd have to agree that backing up an 8 is not always necessary... if you can't tie the 8 right, what makes you think you'll tie the backup knot right? :shock:
c'mon, you can fit through that
User avatar
GoHighGoDeep
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sep 21, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Andrew
NSS #: 53832
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Huntsville and Cleveland
  

Re: webbing

Postby hank moon » Jun 23, 2006 11:27 am

GoHighGoDeep wrote:they're a lot lighter and, i believe around the same strength as 1" tubular webbing tied with a water knot.


A sewn sling (CE marked) is substantially stronger than 1" nylon tube tied w/water knot...not that it generally matters for rigging a caving rope, but FYI.

GoHighGoDeep wrote:i can simply girth hitch them together! quick, easy and sure beats screwing around trying to adjust webbing lengths and knots. I still always have 35' of tubular webbing in my pack as well...


Big strength reduction when slings are girth together. Two 22 kN slings girthed result in a 10 kN (end to end) sling.

hank
User avatar
hank moon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 9:52 am
Location: Salt Lake City
  

Re: webbing

Postby GoHighGoDeep » Jun 23, 2006 1:36 pm

hank moon wrote:Big strength reduction when slings are girth together. Two 22 kN slings girthed result in a 10 kN (end to end) sling.


makes sense, i kind of assumed it would reduce the strength by about half, as it does with most knots.

still plenty strong to use for rigging in caves, though... i'd have to take a pretty big fall onto a static rope to generate 10kn...
c'mon, you can fit through that
User avatar
GoHighGoDeep
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sep 21, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Name: Andrew
NSS #: 53832
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Huntsville and Cleveland
  

Postby chac » Jun 23, 2006 4:30 pm

Not that I am an expert in this discussion - however the below link does bring up some interesting questions:

http://www.climerware.com/knot.shtml

Who knows what evil lurks... javascript:emoticon(':hairpull:')
Hair pull
Jim Coke
User avatar
chac
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 7:42 am
Location: Near Quintana Roo
NSS #: 26442
  

Re: webbing

Postby Tubo Longo » Jun 23, 2006 4:44 pm

GoHighGoDeep wrote:... and if they aren't long enough to reach around a tree, i can simply girth hitch them together! quick, easy and sure beats screwing around trying to adjust webbing lengths and knots....

Sorry, but I don't see the problem in carrying un-sewn webbing and just tie a water knot where is needed. The extra lenght, if any? Just leave it hanging, it won't disturb anybody...
Tubo Longo
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Apr 25, 2006 3:09 pm
Location: near Tacoma, WA
Name: Renato
NSS #: ex 29271
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CGEB SAG CAI of Trieste [Italy]
  

Re: webbing

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Jun 25, 2006 9:34 pm

:exactly:
GoHighGoDeep wrote: Much easier to stuff in a pack with your rigging gear than that 25 foot length of 1" webbing too...


Nothing saying it has to be 25' is there, if you have a selection of tape lengths generally we have 3m, 5m, and 10m tapes which are used for rigging and like Tubo said it doesn't matter if there is some left over.

GoHighGoDeep wrote:Oh... someone mentioned backing up a fig-8... and I'd have to agree that backing up an 8 is not always necessary... if you can't tie the 8 right, what makes you think you'll tie the backup knot right? :shock:


I use a figure 9 for rebelays and anchors where I don't have to back-feed the knot as it is a stronger knot and if for whatever reason the two ends of the rope get pulled in opposite directions a nine will not roll of the end of the rope like an 8 will.
User avatar
fuzzy-hair-man
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Apr 6, 2006 2:09 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NUCC
  

Re: webbing

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jun 26, 2006 1:01 am

fuzzy-hair-man wrote::exactly:
GoHighGoDeep wrote: Much easier to stuff in a pack with your rigging gear than that 25 foot length of 1" webbing too...


Nothing saying it has to be 25' is there, if you have a selection of tape lengths generally we have 3m, 5m, and 10m tapes which are used for rigging and like Tubo said it doesn't matter if there is some left over.

GoHighGoDeep wrote:Oh... someone mentioned backing up a fig-8... and I'd have to agree that backing up an 8 is not always necessary... if you can't tie the 8 right, what makes you think you'll tie the backup knot right? :shock:


I use a figure 9 for rebelays and anchors where I don't have to back-feed the knot as it is a stronger knot and if for whatever reason the two ends of the rope get pulled in opposite directions a nine will not roll of the end of the rope like an 8 will.

The (private) Cave Search and Rescue unit that I trained with (leaders/instructors NCRC certified btw) recommends having at least a 20 foot length of webbing in our regular cave packs for the just in case scenario. Personally I've found it to come quite handy from time to time, particularly since I normally take beginners on their first trips and many of them are leery of doing a simple 10-15 foot free climb without something to "hang-on to." I can understand that since my first times doing such things were hairy, although now I go up them without a second thought... but for the first timers it something to get used to.
The additonal webbing helps out in other things as well.
I would imagine that it would be useful for self-rescue situations too.
I say keep one in your pack ... just in case. :grin:
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php
User avatar
Ralph E. Powers
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
NSS #: 37616
  

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Jun 26, 2006 3:30 am

You can have your shorter tapes for rigging and a longer tape as a backup / hand line.
We use 10m (~30') and a 20m (60') tapes for the same reasons as hand lines to help and inspire confidence on free climbs or to help descend long but slippery slopes, the 20m is also useful for double taping so the last person can pull it down. :-)
User avatar
fuzzy-hair-man
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Apr 6, 2006 2:09 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Primary Grotto Affiliation: NUCC
  

Postby knudeNoggin » Jun 26, 2006 5:01 pm

NZcaver wrote:
Ralph E. Powers wrote:I myself have never known or heard of a properly tied and DRESSED water-knot coming loose or undone. Same with a figure 8 knot done in the same manner.
...
It's just plain common sense.

:yeah that: Amen!

Along with that, I am constantly amused and/or irritated by those who say you must tie a backup knot after a figure-8 in order for it to "be safe". Wrong! But if your rescue team or whatever says it's true, then it must be... at least for those operate without their own brain. In one situation, I heard a so-called rock climbing instructor tell students that an 8 always needed to be backed up, but a Bowline didn't! A gentle suggestion that she may have the two mixed up met with vehement denial. :roll:

Not quite so (fast), alas.
On Tom Moyer's site (http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/) is a study of cyclical
slippage of the exterior end of some tape tied in a Water knot/Ring Bend/
Tape Bend. In another study, this behavior was found in some narrower solid
(prefer "solid" to "flat") tape & Spectra tubular tape, at relatively low loads ONLY;
and 1" tubular nylon tape didn't exhibit, for them. A little bit of slippage accrued
per cycle at low loads (slightly different for each tape, IIRC).

On the issue of a back-up knot, well, hmmmmm. One would like to tie good
knots and let them show their goodness; but in light of risks of unknown
circumstances or knot tyers, the recipe that includes the back-up might show
benefits (alas). Their is awareness (also a test study on Tom Moyer's site)
of the vulnerability of the Offset Fig.8 bend to flyping/capsizing/rolling under
load; a loopknot eye snagged by something (called ring-loading) will
essentially load the knot in this way, and a back-up knot will arrest that.
(In what small fraction of likelihood ... , yeah, but ... .) It's been pointed out
that one can omit the final tuck of a Fig.8 loopknot and still have a workable
knot (and ones presented in Ashley's A Book of Knots), although
these are even more vulnerable to failing under ring-loading.

Re the terribly mistaken gal's bad advice about the Bowline, that should be
dealt with as a matter of life/death--one can refer to some BD promotion
about one of their staff suffering injury from an untied bowline. (Which is
NOT to say Don't Use Bowlines, rather Use With Care!)
For some alternative like loop knots, viola:
http://i3.tinypic.com/wjwh1t.jpg
http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/LocktightII.jpg
http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/Lehman8.jpg


...I was initally taught that using a wrap three pull two was an excellent anchor around either a bomb-proof rock or tree. The (water) knot used on 1-inch tubular webbing should be at the back of the anchor. If there isn't sufficent webbing to wrap three then wrap two pull one is suitable...

Or wrap none but pull two (basket case), which can be done with a pre-tied sling.
The Tensionless Hitch and various other things often get promoted with some
wink about great strength, as though that matters--and without any sign of
regret that stronger material (1/2" rope or ... ) isn't being used. But what chance
is there that the difference in strength will ever be realized, aside from on some
test device? Are there reports of knots breaking, e.g.--ANY knots? (And the
beloved Fig.8 gets tied in some many different dressings & loadings; who shows
a definite form that is "proper" ? --not On Rope (1st), although they purport to!)

There are lots of things that can influence one's rigging (e.g., the Tens.Hit.
torques its object, and is harder on a tree than tape), and with most of what
modern users bring to an anchor, strength is likely well considered in all cases.

*knudeNoggin*
knudeNoggin
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Mar 4, 2006 4:48 pm
Location: Falls Church, Virginia, USA
  

PreviousNext

Return to On Rope!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron