What carabiners do you use on your cowstails?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

OK this might seem pretty minor but hear me out.... besides it was getting quiet around here

What carabiners are recommended for your cowstails ?

At the moment I have a couple of Kong krabs that use the 'key' gate design this is so the krabs can't snag or catch on anything when you are clipping in or unclipping, (mine lock with an ordinary screw lock). The key type gate seems like a good idea to me especially on frequent use items such as cowstails.

Current wisdom in our club etc seems to say that the long cowtail should be a case where it can be attached to a rope or anchor very quickly. As in it all gone pear shaped quick clip into something phew. So the long cowstail should either be a clippy krab or a locking krab where the krab is kept STRICTLY unlocked when not in use so that it's ready for instant use in an emergency.

Currently my practice when passing rebelays is to just clip in I don't normally worry about screwing up the gate unless I am feeling particularly nervous or very exposed or for whatever reason will be spending some time at that rebelay. After all a krab has the same strength along the long axis whether the screw is done up or not.

But I have begun thinking I should be locking it just for the extra safety factor. A quicker and safer way (because I won't forget) of doing this could be to use one of those auto locking krabs for my short cowstail.

Does anyone do this ? which carabiners do you use?
Petzl, Kong and Black Diamond seem to be some of the only companies that use both the key hole gate design and have auto-locking krabs.
Are there any others that use both designs?
Do you find releasing the gate before clipping in to a rebelay annoying or difficult? You are supposed to be able to easily unlock the gate with one hand according to the manufacturers.

Also most of the auto locking krabs seem be to larger than I need as they seem to be predominately used on belay krabs(used for munter hitches), anyone know of some small ones ?

Any opinions... comments

[NZcaver]

I use a pair of non-locking carabiners - one Petzl Spirit keylock bent-gate on the adjustable end of my cowstail, and a tiny Camp Nano wire-gate (smallest carabiner I could find) on the fixed end that attaches to my handled ascender.


(The photo was taken before I swapped the carabiner on my ascender for the wire-gate one...)

Incidentally, over the years I've gone from non-locking to locking, and back to non-locking again. This subject is not a minor issue at all - it's well worth discussing!

[paul]

I use a couple of carabiners I've had for a few years made by "Clog" in Wales, who I believe were taken over by DMM at some stage.

They are just normal, reguar carabiners.

I use a snap-link (no locking sleeve) on my short cowstail and a scew-gate (has locking sleeve) on my long one. The screw or sleeve is not ususally done up except for occasions when extra security is useful as when moving around* while clipped in as opposed to just clipping in while passing re-belays or when getting on or off the rope at pitch-heads.

*There is a known issue with clipping a carabiner into a round anchor, such as glued-in bolts (we call them "P" bolts or "DMM" bolts on this side of the pond) where, especially of the anchor is low down, it is possible for the carabiner to unclip itself while moving back and forth past the anchor. Having a screw-gate in these circumstances is an axtra safey feature. Normally it is better not to screw and unscrew carabiners on re-belays, etc. in order to cave time.

[ian mckenzie]

Having a screw-gate in these circumstances is an axtra safey feature. Normally it is better not to screw and unscrew carabiners on re-belays, etc. in order to cave time.

Actually, an unlocked screwgate biner is MORE prone to accidental opening than a snap-link, because of the protruding lock sleeve. I use snap-links ("regular" nonlocking ovals) on both my 'tails and have never been in a situation where I wished I had a locker instead (though I understand the risk of rotating on a bolt hanger that you mentioned). This is also true for my ascender leash (which is separate from my two 'tails); the oval biner has never accidentally opened.

BTW, if you are rotating a cowstail 'biner on a 'low-down' anchor, a fall on it will be in excess of ff1 (tho clipping into an anchor that is lower than you are is better than not clipping at all, I suppose).

[chh]

I currently have 2 very lightweight keylock lockers on my cow's tails. I like them very much, I think they are made by Kong, but I don't remember the model number. The basket is not very big, but I'm never clipping into more than an ascender, a traverse line, or a bolt with it, so it's not a big deal. Also they are fairly narrow so they share small holes well. I have used non-lockers in the past, and they worked fine, I would heartily recommend the keylocks though. They NEVER get caught on stuff, which I love. Also, I've seen what fuzzy-hair-man is referring to, i.e. at krab coming off a bolt, but never in a caving circumstance. I saw it once, and I myself did it climbing above a bolt that had a very large nut on it relative to the hanger. As my feet moved past, my toe caught the quickdraw at the webbing that seperates the two krabs and brought it up. The gate was facing the nut and it rotated in a way such that it popped off. I was new to climbing then and it scarred the s**t out of me, especially since I was struggling to make the next clip and very well could have cratered had I not made it.

That being said, I not sure why you would be climbing or fooling around above your anchor while still leashed in with only one cowstail in cave where it coming off would spell disaster. Or why you would be in such a terrible hurry to clip something in an SRT scenario. And even in a rebelay you shouldn't really be above the anchor unless it's really poorly rigged. And even then, why not do a change over and downclimb into a better position? Sure you take more time, but hey.... I also could see how a non-locker could save you time, but you can always not lock a locker, and they make some pretty fancy-dancy ones now that aren't any heavier than a normal krab. And I guess I've never been in that much of a hurry.

I don't like the auto-lockers though. I know people who do, but I just like to screw them down myself I guess. In applications where a locker is necessary, I just feel more comfortable with a screw gate. Personal preference.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I'm not thinking so much of a case where you head up over the anchor, because you shouldn't be doing that anyway, but rather that the gate gets bumped or tangled up in the other gear at a rebelay and the gate gets accidentally opened.

I mean if there is a safer option and it doesn't seriously effect the way you do things then why not take the safer option.

So I am trying to work out whether it will be a pain to clip in and unclip etc.
and whether it will effect speed and efficiency crossing rebelays.

[potholer]

I use a regular bent-gate snaplink on my short cowstail, and a wide-opening screwgate on my long, with the gate kept screwed open the majority of the time.
I only really screw up the long cowstail when I'm going to be sitting around for a while, such as when waiting for someone rigging or bolting, etc, where I run the risk of dozing off or getting distracted, or where I feel the need for a little psychological security, such as clipping into a slack safety rope when doing a tyrolean, an *extra* clipping into a cable end while being hauled on a winch, etc.
However, having the two crabs with different sizes and gate styles does mean I can instantly tell them apart by both look and feel, which is no bad thing. Even if I decided to go for snaplinks on both, I'd make them as different as possible.

[potholer]

In general, I'd have thought an autolock on a short cowstail could be a pain if doing a quantity of technical ropework.
Though I guess it depends how awkward the autolock is to use, how muddy/gritty your caves are, etc, anything that can make taking the short cowstail off any harder on descent past a hanging rebelay has the risk of getting annoying quite quickly. It's possible that when loaded, the gate isn't accessible (pulled against a knot, etc), so it may be a case of unloading the cowstail and then having to start fiddling with the gate whilst balanced on the loop from above, rock ledges, etc.

[Anonymous_Coward]

I use locking carabiners. They take about 4 seconds to lock and another 4 seconds to unlock. What's the hurry? Unless you're one some sort of rebelay race course, I'd recommend taking the extra time for safety.

[potholer]

Passing a rebelay on the way down, there doesn't seem to be much opportunity for a non-locking short cowstail to get accidentally detached - the times when it isn't at least partially loaded from the instant of being clipped in, it's loaded very shortly afterwards, and only unloaded close to the end of the manouvre when it isn't needed any longer for safety.

I suppose a belay failure under static bodyweight load during the few seconds of descender transfer could risk an accidental unclipping of the short cowstail during the resulting fall, but I always have my long cowstail (and usually my braking crab as well) clipped into the up-rope when switching the descender between ropes, and the knot isn't too likely to pull through either/both of them - that'd seem to be getting to the realms of a chain of pretty unlikely things occurring before a bad outcome could happen.

[NZcaver]

Hmmm...

I was a little surprised to find recently that the required gear list for a British Columbia Cave Rescue training seminar in Canada included "2 cowstails, minimum 9mm dynamic rope, with 2 locking carabiners" (emphasis added). By contrast, I couldn't find any US National Cave Rescue Commission material that specifies one way or the other - so one must assume that personal preference prevails (and rightly so, in my humble opinion). I don't know if the NSS Vertical Section has an "official" recommendation on this, but it would be interesting to find out (anyone?).

Out of curiosity, I looked up this subject in my 3 major vertical caving references. Here's what I found -

On Rope (USA), 1996, page 133:
Drawing shows a locking carabiner on the long cowstail, and a non-locking one on the short. Text states "two D shaped carabiners. If intended use is other than simple rebelay negotiation, a locking carabiner may be preferred. Europeans prefer non-locking because they are fast and easy to operate." Also states that cowstails should use high-stretch rope of at least 10mm diameter. Drawing shows figure-8 knots at both ends and the middle of the double cowstail.

Vertical (Australia), 1988, page 10:
Photo clearly shows non-locking carabiners. Text does not mention anything about the carabiners being locking or non-locking, but does emphasize using at least 9mm dynamic rope for cowstails and checking/replacing the rope regularly. Photo shows figure-8 knots at both ends and the middle of the double cowstail.

Alpine Caving Techniques (France), 2002, page 41:
Again, drawings clearly show non-locking carabiners. Text states "each length (of cowstail rope) ends in a loop...into which you place a non-locking carabiner." It goes on to suggest the use of keylock carabiners, but interestingly it advises against using bent-gate versions. "Bent gate carabiners may appear to be more convenient...mainly because they have a larger opening. But in some cases - for example, sudden twisting on the rope, cowstails stiffened by dried mud, or a traverse with a sharp turn - a bent gate carabiner can actually be very dangerous. It can snap open under pressure from the rope, releasing the cowstail from the safety line." It also describes using 9-11mm dynamic rope, but states "we do not recommend using a figure-eight knot (on cowstails)...it is bulkier, will wear more quickly and takes longer to tighten down to it's final size." Instead they advise using simple overhand knots at both ends and the middle of the double cowstail.

[GoHighGoDeep]

I've always used locking carabiners for my cowstails... I used DMM 11mm Lynx for a long time, then i switched over to a pair of BD rocklock (sp?) biners that i'm using currently. I've actually been thinking about replacing the biner on my long cowstail with something with a bit lower profile, just to reduce bulk and keep it from interfering with things more... but i'll definitely stay with locking biners. While non-locking biners may be faster and easier, i personally don't think that the old mountaineering adage 'speed is safety' holds true for caving.

[NZcaver]

...While non-locking biners may be faster and easier, i personally don't think that the old mountaineering adage 'speed is safety' holds true for caving.

I agree. But the "standard" (at least according to the books) of using non-locking carabiners is not purely about speed. It's also about convenience and ease of use. A non-locking carabiner generally has less weight, bulk, and moving parts than a locking one. Think about necessity. Considering how you use your cowstail, is it really necessary to have a locking carabiner on it? On the other hand, do you feel the added "protection" a locking carabiner might provide outweighs the "benefits" of using a non-locking one?

For some people yes, for others no...

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I think if I or someone else was doing a pickoff I would prefer that they had their patient attached with a locking carabiner.

As to "what's the hurry"

When there are several people waiting at the bottom of a pitch who are cold wet and hungry and waiting for someone who is heading up the rope, I think they would appreciate they are safe but also efficient so I guess it comes down to where you draw the line. If they are not safe (have an accident) the rest are going to be in the cave quite a bit longer.

The auto-locking krabs seem to be an easy one handed twist operation to open which probably adds a second to no time at all to clip into a rebelay and the same to unclip.

So is it only really a problem if the gate swings in if it is a fall? Typically a krab might have an open gate strength of 6 - 7 kN right ? Which means it probably isn't a issue of strength so we are only really talking about the security of the attachment into the rebelay right ? and psychological reassurance
Unless the rebelay point fails but then there will in most cases be fair amount of rope above you to shock absorb and your cowstails are dynamic and springys are used by climber expressly to catch falls.

I don't know...

[NZcaver]

...So is it only really a problem if the gate swings in if it is a fall? Typically a krab might have an open gate strength of 6 - 7 kN right ? Which means it probably isn't a issue of strength so we are only really talking about the security of the attachment into the rebelay right ? and psychological reassurance ...

Right. Not to down-play it's importance, but let's take psychology out of the equation for a moment. Now we are mainly talking about the security of the attachment, so consider this - besides Paul's description of clipping into a P-bolt below you and then moving back and forth, how likely is it that a non-locking spring-loaded carabiner gate will open AND the carabiner will fall out of a rebelay - all unintentionally?

And if we still say the carabiner should be a locking one "just in case", by the same rationale shouldn't rock climbers start using locking carabiners for clipping the rope into their cams/chocks/nuts/etc?

Food for thought...