what is it with these 8's?

[chh]

I've noticed in a few of the threads lately the prevalence of people using figure 8's. At the risk of picking a fight, and perhaps it's been covered before, but I've just gotta ask.....what is it with the 8? Why do people continue to use this device? I mean no disrespect to people's preferences. You go with what you know, but the 8 just seems like an ill-concieved sollution to the "getting down a rope" problem. It will certainly work safely, but there are other, better, and just as cost effective means. I'll admit, I have an irrational dislike for the figure 8. I think they are silly. Perhaps I should have titled this the "I hate the 8" thread.

Anyway, thoughts? If you use one, what do you see as the 8's strong points over other devices? Why has this device remained in the arsenal of commonly used rappell/belay devices in the vertical world? C'mon. Convince me that the 8 is not stupid.

[erebus]

Why do people continue to use this device?

It's:
*Cheap
*Small and light
*Simple (only one part - no maintenance)
*Simple to learn

I have one, and sometimes use it, when I don't feel like lugging my rack a long way for a short drop.

[chh]

There are other things which are small and light and inexpensive. I rarely use a rack either, except for loooooong drops. What about a tube style device? Lighter, smaller, (arguably) simpler, doesn't twist the rope, just as cheap, can be made of aluminium or steel.....

[Scott McCrea]

For me it's the small and light factor. There are only a few places I use my 8. One cave around here has a 26' drop way in the back of a nasty, crawly, canyony, sloty horror hole. No way I want to carry anymore weight or bulk than necessary in there. I know, I could use a Munter Hitch, but I don't like using them on aluminum biners (me=wuss) and if I carry a steel biner, it weighs more than the 8. So, I pull my 8 out every once in a while, when the cave is deserving. 8's have their faults, but they have merits as well.

[Scott McCrea]

What about a tube style device?

Like what? I'm not sure I'm thinking of the same thing you are.

[hank moon]

What about a tube style device? Lighter, smaller, (arguably) simpler, doesn't twist the rope, just as cheap, can be made of aluminium or steel.....

Most U.S. cavers use fat, stiff rope - a real bear to stuff in a tuber. 8 is much easier to rig...

If you know of a steel tuber in production, please do tell! Been wanting one for awhile and too lazy to whittle one up.

[erebus]

A tuber? You can use a potato to go down a rope?

[Scott McCrea]

Are you talking about this sort of thing?



If so, I don't use them because (remember, me=wuss) I don't like how the rope runs over the biner. But the bigger factor, for me, is it's not as compact as an 8. An 8 is flat and stuffs into very small spaces in my pack. A tube is three-dimensional, bigger, takes up more space in my pack.

[chh]

A tuber? You can use a potato to go down a rope?

Yeah, but you have to be REAL careful about wear.....

Like what? I'm not sure I'm thinking of the same thing you are.

you probably are. Black Diamond ATC is probably the most common of the tube style devices today. If you do an image search it will come up, probably with a technical notice as well. Basically a "tube" that you stuff a bight of rope through and put through a locker. It creates 2 bends in the rope for friction on rappell.

Most U.S. cavers use fat, stiff rope - a real bear to stuff in a tuber. 8 is much easier to rig...

If you know of a steel tuber in production, please do tell! Been wanting one for awhile and too lazy to whittle one up.

Yeah, me too. I don't know why there isn't one made especially for caving. Basically take any old tube device make it a little wider and make it out of steel. I've used other tube style devices on muddy, sandy, and wet caving ropes....all 10 or 11 mm. The thing about the devices designed for climbing is that they are all made of aluminium, as I am sure you are aware. I destroyed an ATC in a sandy cave with multiple drops. It got sharp, but you would have worn a pretty good groove in an 8 too, unless it was steel maybe. I've seen some other tube style devices that look perfect for caving, but I can't figure out what they are made of. Check out Vaude's Globus
Yate's Belay Slave
Omega Pacific's SBG II
Kong's Gi Gi
Cassin's Belay/Rescue Plate

The Globus and SBG II look cool, and also look like they might possibly be made out of steel. The other thing I've thought of is to go to the hardware store and look for a welded steel chain link or ring of the appropriate size and diameter. Use it just like a stich plate. If I find the perfect size I'll let you know. Also thought about using rap rings. If the welding wierds you out (I don't know how I feel about it) Metolius is making solid rap rings now that are tested to something like 25 kn's, but again, I don't believe they are steel. And I don't know that they would be of the appropriate size to use like a stich plate.

[chh]

Are you talking about this sort of thing?

precisely.

And while your argument for the flatness of the 8 has it's merits, I would argue that a tube is probably more "compact".

(remember, me=wuss)

Hey, I'm a WUSS too. (I belong to several grottos, one of which is the Wittenberg University Speleological Society)
You have to be brave to be a WUSS!

[hank moon]

And while your argument for the flatness of the 8 has it's merits, I would argue that a tube is probably more "compact".

For Scott, it's just all about flat. Flat pack, flat rap device, flat tax, flatulence...

[hunter]

I almost always use a stop when caving but I have used an ATC extensivly climbing and have previously used 8s, anyway a few thoughts:

8 vs tuber
-The 8 has been around a long time, so have stitch plates but I would argue that the 8 has had a higher profile until the 90s so there is a lot of momentum behind it.
-Although some of the newer Tube types are a bit better the 8 is easier to use with large nasty ropes and wears better (I would argue).
-Supporting the previous point you can get steel 8's and at one point could get a ti one.
-8's are slightly heavier than the ATC but that reduces heating issues, I've certainly glazed the sheath a bit with an ATC.
-You can get rescue 8s which some people seem to think are "cool" but they are alse easier to lock off than a tuber. I know you can always lock off any rap device but the rescue 8 is easy.

8 vs other
-cheap compared to any rack or bobbin
-easy to use for a double rope rap
-no moving parts
-you can easily belay with many 8's in a stitch plate style but rap using the 8 design.

Anyway, all that said I use a stop in almost all caving and use an ATC climbing where softer and thinner ropes are standard.

Hunter

[Ralph E. Powers]

I tell my (vertical) students to NEVER use an ATC during vertical caving. I won't allow it. The wear on the biner with a static rope is higher than with a dynamic line... I've personally have seen it.
8's are fine devices. One must simply take the time to understand them.
People complain about the aluminum residue left behind (especially by a worn 8). There's no evidence that it harms the rope... just makes it darker than when it was.
People complain about the twisting caused by the 8. That doesn't hurt the rope either... especially if you use the right length rope for the drop. A 200'er for a 60 foot drop isn't that bright Horatio.

As previously mentioned... the 8 is lighter, cheaper, easier to use. It is less forgiving should one lets go of the brake-hand but one shouldnt do that in the first place eh?

8's are good, 8's are fine.

[chh]

Legitimate points.

I'm not sure, but are both the bobbins in a stop or simple or comparable style device ALWAYS steel? I don't think that they are. If they aren't, wouldn't they be made of stock similar to what carabiners are made of, or aluminium 8's? Would you tell students not to use these? Yes, wear with a static rope, especially a muddy or sandy one will be more pronounced. Worth not learning a viable device? Hardly. I teach some vertical clinics as well, which usually start with the rack and move to the bobbin as these are (in my opinion) the best devices specifically for caving. But I also show them how the 8, tube, Munter, carabiner brake and other devices work. Not as applicable to caving in my mind, but why not have them in your arsenal? Is an ATC suitable for your regular caving descender? No, but wouldn't it be nice if it could be?

Yeah, you don't want to have a bunch of rope lying at the bottom of the pit. Accurate rigging does help alleviate some of the twisting that an 8 will produce. But personally, when it is my rope, I don't like people using 8's because I don't like my rope getting twisted, especially if the drop is over 30 or 40 feet. And I especially don't like coiling a twisted rope. Again, a pet peve. Does it harm the rope? No. Is it a pain in the a$$? I think so.

I just can't believe that we haven't developed another device that has all the positive attributes of an 8 without the twisting. The obvious solution in my mind is a beefier, steel tube device.

[hunter]

but are both the bobbins in a stop or simple or comparable style device ALWAYS steel

People complain about the aluminum residue left behind (especially by a worn 8).

I think the newer stops have at least one steel (or two?) bollard (bobbin) but many have aluminum as has been discussed in several previous threads. I've seen plenty of racks with aluminum bars as well....

Which makes the second statement interesting. I've heard the statement Ralph quoted several times but I don't think using a rack with aluminum bars is any better than an 8 in terms of discoloration...

I tell my (vertical) students to NEVER use an ATC during vertical caving. I won't allow it. The wear on the biner with a static rope is higher than with a dynamic line... I've personally have seen it.

I've seen the same thing and am very wary of using an ATC caving for this reason, although I worry more about the device because I tend to use a steel biner.

chh, it's been posted in threads before but if you have the time check out this website on descenders:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/RappelDevices.shtml
It gives you a real idea of what has been tried and has excellent information on what current devices are made of.

Hunter