Froggers: What order does everything go on your mailion?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Lately I have been playing around with the order I put my gear on the mailion.

At the moment it is: (from left to right as if I had it on)

1. Hand ascender safety attachment (I am right handed and it is a right handed Ascension)
2. Cowstails
3. Descender
4. Croll chest ascender.

But it's not perfect, because it seems to be easier to tangle your hand ascender gear when passing rebelays if the hand ascender is on the left hand side of the chest ascender.

BUT

If I put my hand ascender on the right hand side the attachment knot when weighted will obstruct access to my chest ascender making it hard to release. (this problem could be an argument for a left handed Ascension for right handers, however the temptation would be to haul away with the dominant hand in the handle)

So that explained what order does everyone else use? why?
Do you have this issue ? if not why not ?

[Stelios Zacharias]

I am not sure what your no. 1 is.

The order I was taught (which is also as it appears in TSA, if I am not mistaken) is:

Cowstails (with ascender attached to long tail)
Descender (with extra carb to the right of it)
Croll

From what I gather you don't want anything to the right of the Croll so you can open it with one hand whenever necessary.

[paul]

I (and most of the cavers I know here in the UK) do same as you except for the safety link to my hand ascender.

From my left to right while wearing the harness:
1. Cowstails
2. Descender (Petzl Simple) + braking carabiner
3. Croll chest ascender

I was taught years ago to put the safety attachment from my hand ascender to the bottom of the maillon joining the harness. This way it is out of the way and leaves more room on the top for the above items.

The only argument I have heard against this is if you hang from the hand descender it will tend to flip the maillon by pulling on the bottom causing the top to dig into your abdomen. But then you don't often do this.

One caving instructor I know suggests using a 7mm maillon to attach the safety link to the harness maillon and since it is attached on the bottom half, it can be used as a spanner (or wrench) to tighten the screw on the harness joining maillon.

[Mike W]

From my left to right:
1. Cowstails ( no intermediate maillon )
2. Descender ( Petzl Simple ) on Freino combined crab + braking crab
3. Croll

Safety attachment from hand ascender ( Basic ) by crab to righthand metal harness loop.

[karst97]

I've always found it interesting that the descender is between the cowstails and the ascender.

This makes it more difficult to tie the descender off and out of the way when doing certain maneuvers such as crossing fixed safety lines on the cowstail. It also makes for crossed equipment when using the cowstail as the safety for the upper ascender.

What are the perceived downsides to switching the descender and cowstail connections? I've used both methods in the past.

Scott

[Tubo Longo]

My Italian cent... Position are intended from my left to my right.

RAPPELING: long cowstails (clipped out of the way on the harness), short cowstails, descender (Simple or U microrack), brake biner, chest ascender (hanging loose on the right side unless I'm rigging);

CLIMBING: short cowstails (clipped out of the way on the harness), long cowstails, chest ascender.

My upper ascender has its own safety link and is always attached via a parallel lock biner to the right loop of the seat harness.

I don't keep the descender on if climbing: it's hooked on the chest harness, out of the way (and undesired bumping). Should I need to change over, is a matter of seconds to reach and clip it in.

I don't like the idea of clipping the safety of the upper ascender on the bottom of the maillon: as stated it could reverse the maillon if you find yourself hanging ONLY from the upper ascender. But it could also be very unconfortable at some point of a a pick-off.

Cheers -- Renato

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I am not sure what your no. 1 is.

I have a permanent safety line from my hand ascender to my mailion, so basically the order I use is the same as yours...

What are the perceived downsides to switching the descender and cowstail connections? I've used both methods in the past.

I can see the reason the descender is to the right of your cowstails as this will put the descender on the right of the taught short cowstail as you are crossing a rebelay making it easier for right handers to thread their descender.

Safety attachment from hand ascender ( Basic ) by crab to righthand metal harness loop.

The attachment to the seat harness it's self is something I never thought about.
May be I could attach it though the harness loop and the mailion this way in the highly unlikely event of the harness loop failing you are still attached to the mailion which is attached to the other loop and you hanging sideways by the leg loops on your harness. So the harness loop just keeps the knot out of your way nice. I might have to try it.

[paul]

I've always found it interesting that the descender is between the cowstails and the ascender.

This makes it more difficult to tie the descender off and out of the way when doing certain maneuvers such as crossing fixed safety lines on the cowstail. It also makes for crossed equipment when using the cowstail as the safety for the upper ascender.

What are the perceived downsides to switching the descender and cowstail connections? I've used both methods in the past.

Scott

I would imagine that when abseiling and passing a rebelay while hanging on the short cowstail (if there are no convenient footholds or ledges), if the descender was on the left of the taut short cowstail it would be difficult to thread right-handed with the short cowstail in the way. It may be that for "lefties" the order would be different. Try it out and see which you prefer.

[Baazalung]

The order I was taught (which is also as it appears in TSA, if I am not mistaken) is:

Cowstails (with ascender attached to long tail)
Descender (with extra carb to the right of it)
Croll

I was also taught the same order. It is typical for the followers of the French School of TSA...

[NZcaver]

From left to right (as I'm wearing it):

1. Descender carabiner (usually a Freino if I'm using a Stop, or an oval maillon if using a rack)
2. Cowstail - the loop knot in the middle (one end going to my handled ascender, and the other end to a non-locking carabiner)
3. Croll chest ascender

Like this (photo shows this order reversed - so it's as you look at it):



The order of the descender and cowstail has yet to cause me any problems.

[potholer]

Left-to-right, I go.
Hand-ascender safety cord
Descender
Croll
Cowstails

The disadvantage is that the cowstails can occasionally get a little in the way of the Croll catch operating, but only fairly rarely - except in odd circumstances, it would only be a long cowstail I might be clipped in with when manipulating my Croll, and it never seems to cause me any significant problems.

Essentially, my setup is a hangover from when I used a Croll harness, and hung my cowstails and footloop safety cord from the two steel main-maillon attachment loops, which is a very clean way of attaching gear, although it makes hanging on cowstails less comfortable since more weight ends up on one leg.
Being right-handed, I like to keep my cowstails clipped to my harness on my right for instant access, and if they were attached to the main maillon to the left of my Croll, they would be crossing across behind the rope running down from my Croll to my Pantin.

[Baazalung]

Doesn't the NSS have a standard for arranging things on your maillon? I mean... a recommendation? A guide?

[NZcaver]

Doesn't the NSS have a standard for arranging things on your maillon? I mean... a recommendation? A guide?

Not really - at least as far as I'm aware. There seems to be a general trend of keeping everything on the cheek side of the Croll so it doesn't interfere with the rope/cam, but that's about it. Just like the Monty Python movie says, "We are all individuals".

In addition, there's widespread use of the Frog, Mitchell, Texas, and Ropewalker systems in the US. While they each work on their own basic principles, there are almost infinite variations due to personal preference. This can occasionally become confusing/annoying (for example during rescue pick-offs) but that's the way it is. The best we can hope for is that each user understands their system and is well-practiced in it's use. Some believe as long as it works, they never need to change it. Others (like me) are willing to keep an open mind and be a little more flexible when it comes to tinkering with and making small modifications to their systems.