HAAS system

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HAAS system

Postby mostlytree » Dec 14, 2013 8:54 pm

I have been itching to use this in a cave. but I'm in ohio and the caves stink from what I am told, and its winter, and more importantly I am not a caver. I invented it for tree climbers, but it is now being used for rope access in all kinds of areas, never in a cave to my knowing. I do know that some ice guys have them for getting out of crevasses, as a self rescue. I would really like to see what it will do in a cave, I cannot think there would be too much difference, and I have seen the systems that you guys use, to me it seems like if anyone would appreciate what it can do it would be cavers.
But I don't know any cavers, and I have never done it, however after joining this forum, I am totally down for it. with that said. two things; I really want to go.. and if anyone wants to try one of these and give me feed back that would be great.

now for the haas itself, it takes the place of everything in a srt system except your food ascender, your chest harness, and life support attachment. the whole thing is less than 24 inches long and weighs under a lb. it captures 100%of your advancement on your non patin foot, tends great, and is fast to put on and take off. its ergonomically more correct and efficient.

if anyone is interested in trying one, you can buy them at treestuff.com and if you don't like it I'll buy it back off you. no lie, or if a grotto wants one for a outing, I will send one out so you can try it as a group.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caver.adam » Dec 15, 2013 9:38 pm

Most cavers would want to use any new system outside before ever trying it in a cave. There are a lot more considerations when climbing in a cave than when climbing in a tree. Hint, "ease of climbing" is not the number one consideration. Many traditional cavers are very methodical before ever taking a new system in a cave. If you want to actually get this going you should find your local group and find someone that would like to seriously evaluate its strengths and weaknesses outside a cave.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caver.adam » Dec 15, 2013 9:40 pm

Remember, if you get injured in a cave it is more than twice as hard to get you out than it is on the surface. If you have to cave to the pit it is even more difficult. Cave rescues aren't just a life-flight away. They often take days. It's not that we don't try new things, its that we use science before putting our life on the line.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caver.adam » Dec 15, 2013 9:42 pm

Huh, don't know why I posted my comment. You already have another active thread about this topic.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby Rivershredder » Dec 15, 2013 11:37 pm

caver.adam wrote:Most cavers would want to use any new system outside before ever trying it in a cave. There are a lot more considerations when climbing in a cave than when climbing in a tree. Hint, "ease of climbing" is not the number one consideration. Many traditional cavers are very methodical before ever taking a new system in a cave. If you want to actually get this going you should find your local group and find someone that would like to seriously evaluate its strengths and weaknesses outside a cave.

I think I found the video that goes with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWFm7v9rbNI

I think fundamentally a tree climbing system might run into some issues in a cave mostly because tree climbing is a different "sandbox". As most tree climbers are looking for speed because time is money, most cavers are looking for something bombproof. With almost all popular systems they can all turn into a texas system if something happens to a ascender or another part. Something I don't know that a tree climbing system could do because it out of my "caving sandbox" That goes to say that personally, descending with a rope wrench and a friction hitch scares the mess out of me simply because of the heat build up with only having two bars on the rope wrench and the nylon on nylon action of the hitch. I would much rather change over and descend on a rack simply because I know its limitations.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby GroundquestMSA » Dec 16, 2013 1:04 am

The listed price for this device is $149, by the way. I don't know if that's a good price or not. I may be greatly oversimplifying, but the Haas seems to be built of a bit of bungee, a bit of tape, and a relatively cheap Italian chest ascender (Climbing Technologies, under $40). Climbtech (a different company entirely) has even cheaper ascenders, so if the idea is really a good one, it looks like you could build your own for $50.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby Extremeophile » Dec 16, 2013 12:50 pm

Rivershredder wrote:As most tree climbers are looking for speed because time is money, most cavers are looking for something bombproof.

I think the priority is safety #1 and speed #2. I'm not exactly sure what "bombproof" means, but it needs to be strong, redundant, and work reliably in underground conditions (water, mud, etc.), and these relate to the priorities. Ropewalker systems are more efficient and therefore faster in situations with simple rigging, whereas Frog systems are more efficient and faster with more complex rigging, and this generally drives the choice cavers make between these systems.

With almost all popular systems they can all turn into a texas system if something happens to a ascender or another part.

I suppose any system with two ascenders can convert to a Texas.

It's impossible to tell from a video of climbing into a tree how a system will perform caving. With all of the current standard ascending systems it would be possible to walk up to a fixed rope and climb 30' in 30 secs. On the surface, the HAAS system looks a lot like a bungie assisted Frog-walker. I suspect it would be less efficient than a ropewalker in longer free rope climbs, and less efficient than a Frog at crossing rebelays.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby Extremeophile » Dec 16, 2013 1:08 pm

caver.adam wrote:It's not that we don't try new things, its that we use science before putting our life on the line.

First, I don't believe in science. I suspect it's a scam thought up by scientists.
Second, I think we can assume this new system is safe because there is no pile of dead bodies (the well established caving community standard for safety).
Finally, we know the system is fast because it says so on the internet.
The only thing that can be gained by experimentation and collection of data is misrepresentation and false claims.
:wink:
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caver.adam » Dec 16, 2013 2:40 pm

The only thing that can be gained by experimentation and collection of data is misrepresentation and false claims.


I didn't say we should "do" science. I said we should "use" science. Like a club. To beat those who don't agree with us.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caverdan » Dec 16, 2013 3:13 pm

The adjustable foot loop looks really cool and would be nice to have for a loaner set or possibly to help new people get their length adjusted correctly when setting up a system. The price does seem awful high for a bunge foot ascender set up. Good luck....but remember....cavers are cheap ba$tard$.....mud is our friend.
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Re: HAAS system

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 16, 2013 4:17 pm

What am i missing here. It looks just like a long stirrup and bungee, just like a single bungee ropewalker........ right?
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Re: HAAS system

Postby caverdan » Dec 16, 2013 6:26 pm

Chads93GT wrote:What am i missing here. It looks just like a long stirrup and bungee, just like a single bungee ropewalker........ right?

That's what I'm seeing, Chads. The big difference I see is...... it is not attached to your leg or your harness.....so it doesn't deflect the rope as much when climbing. I'd at least attach my cows tail to it when removing it. I'd hate to drop something that expensive..... and with my luck...... it would end up lost in the breakdown at the bottom of the pit. :doh:
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Re: HAAS system

Postby mostlytree » Dec 16, 2013 11:12 pm

what makes it different is the bungie is way longer than it looks, the tether has a liner in it which is spliced into the tether, this allows the bungie to be inside the tether, which gives it way more travel. believe me its not just a tether with a foot loop, we would have not sold as many as we have if that was the case. it has the travel and capture of a Baranek but is actually smaller than a signal sided system. the liner has to be spliced into the tether, it has to be stiff enough not to collapse. because what is actually happening is the tether is "pulled " up from the bottom, rather than the top. in this case it basically adds 10 inches to the bungie when it is streached, and adds no length to the bungie when its at rest. this makes a huge difference in the way it works.

as far as the different sand box, we all use the same stuff. in fact I would bet there is more variation within the separate fields than between them, frogs were the way to go. some guys had texas systems. but mostly frogs. the Baranek walker was available but its so expensive. and bulky. this would be terrible in a cave I would imagine. lots of guys are using this now.

everyone who sees it the first thing they think it is is a simple single sided rope walker, and in some ways I guess it is. but at the same time it really is not.

I offered to send one to a grotto to beat on and try as a demo . that offer still stands.

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Re: HAAS system

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 16, 2013 11:59 pm

Id love to try it out in my 62' tree in my back yard but i am not sure how I could incorporate that into my system. I use a frog system and when I am not frogging i simply put my ropewalker on right over the top and use both systems. great system to use for vertical survey if you are a sketcher (like me).
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Re: HAAS system

Postby mostlytree » Dec 17, 2013 9:51 am

if you are interested ill send you one to float around the forum
as a trial
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