Cavechat.org

The word caver is gender neutral. We all know what it means to be a caver and I suspect that has a lot to do with the lack of any discrimination based on it.

So.... This thread has gone on for 10 pages. Maybe it’s the cold medicine but 10 pages of discussion about the physical attributes of a particular caver is absurd. It’s a pretty well established fact that this particular caver THRIVES on attention, ANY kind of attention. Don't you think that 10 pages of forum discussion of somebody's tits is enough encouragement for another article? Hell if ya'll keep this up by next month maybe there will be a 20 page discussion on her tits and possibly another article in the N.S.S news featuring tits on rope!
I have not read the article, and if I do you can bet I won't be discussing it here. The best way to deal with people like this is to TOTALLY ignore them, just like any other Troll.
I think that the N.S.S News is probably hurting for content, which Amy is providing. I have helped produce my Grotto's newsletter for several years and can tell you first-hand how hard it is to get content for a newsletter. I can't imagine how much harder it is for Dave to scrape up enough material for a monthly magazine such as the N.S.S News. If we want to stop having articles about somebody's pendulous udders as they relate to caving, or at least spread out to every other month, there has to be more material available for publication.
I'll step off this here soap box now.

mabercrombie wrote:So.... This thread has gone on for 10 pages. Maybe it’s the cold medicine but 10 pages of discussion about the physical attributes of a particular caver is absurd. It’s a pretty well established fact that this particular caver THRIVES on attention, ANY kind of attention. Don't you think that 10 pages of forum discussion of somebody's tits is enough encouragement for another article? Hell if ya'll keep this up by next month maybe there will be a 20 page discussion on her tits and possibly another article in the N.S.S news featuring tits on rope!
I have not read the article, and if I do you can bet I won't be discussing it here. The best way to deal with people like this is to TOTALLY ignore them, just like any other Troll.
I think that the N.S.S News is probably hurting for content, which Amy is providing. I have helped produce my Grotto's newsletter for several years and can tell you first-hand how hard it is to get content for a newsletter. I can't imagine how much harder it is for Dave to scrape up enough material for a monthly magazine such as the N.S.S News. If we want to stop having articles about somebody's pendulous udders as they relate to caving, or at least spread out to every other month, there has to be more material available for publication.
I'll step off this here soap box now.

LOL This he said as he proceeded to add another 3 paragraphs to the discussion.

This has been an amusing discussion. You guys have had me in stitches, as well as my co-workers who I have let in on the conversation.

Trogman

mabercrombie wrote:So.... This thread has gone on for 10 pages. Maybe it’s the cold medicine but 10 pages of discussion about the physical attributes of a particular caver is absurd.

If you take the time to read the whole 10 pages you will see that the topic goes way of topic and then comes full circle. To me it has been quite an entertaining thread.

I agree with Mgmills. Besides, If people didn't want attention NOTHING would be in the NSS News. I don't disagree that Amy is controversial, but the funniest thing is that *she* doesn't even participate in this forum regularly anymore and not in this thread at all. So we can hardly point fingers in that direction for the 10 pages of this thread. But if talking about curvy cavers frustrates people I can always start another thread about the new HQ

Did I miss a copy of the NSS, somehow? I got the one with the 2012 VBATS Mexico trip report and ...I really liked it. Where , which issue was the Curvy Caver article in. She sounds like a hoot in person , but questionably liberal in what she is willing to submit for print, and doesn't realize or care what the Society thinks.

Kent, did you notice that her Mexico article takes a dig at you in the first sentence? And quite unfairly, I thought.

Everybody needs a Muse!

I didn't feel she was grinding an axe that much. She just was including as a landmark in her evolution as a Vertical Caver. If she has read any of my post's thoroughly she knows I applaud her commitment. My original comment was a thread I saw midway through a bunch of posts about a YouTube clip she made climbing in a Polebarn on a sloppy loose Frog System. As you can see in the May NSS, the VBATS worked with her until her custom rig was ... Tight and Right!

Stan Allison wrote:As for two versus one ascender on rope. I do sometimes climb short handlines that I can free-climb by just attaching my croll to the rope and climbing. I always have two devices attached to a rope when performing changeovers either going up or down. I'm not concerned about ascenders failing or popping off when they are weighted and not being moved up or down the rope. My favorite unconscious pick-off technique is the counterweight method on a long cowstail as on page 277 of Alpine Caving Techniques. Step 7 of this technique does leave both myself and the patient suspended by one pre-weighted ascender until a rappel device is attached. If any of you don't feel comfortable hanging by just one ascender, please let me know and I will leave you hanging on rope unconscious if I should ever encounter you in this situation. We could refer to this is as a DNP order for a Do Not Pickoff order. To be safe, it might be best if you have a DNP order bracelet or tattoo on your chest.

I've rappelled ascenders before. More than once. Properly weighted and static ones. They started creeping down the rope and on one case was stopped when my weight transferred to the second one, and in the other case I was hanging by one and I stopped when I reached the ground 20' below because I was saving a little time only hanging by one ascender because "I was only 20' off the ground." On the flip side, if I am hanging unconscious on rope then I don't give a rats hiney (even a heavy rat's hiney) how many ascenders my rescuer uses to support our weight, as long as it is at least one, cuz I'm probably going to die in short order if something isn't done and I'll accept a 90% safety over near certain death.

Having said that, I want to bring this around to the OP:

The article was poorly written and the techniques poorly researched. As a professional who has taught hundreds of people of all shapes and sizes vertical work with every system out there and many hybrids, and done many miles of vertical work from very deep pits and cliffs to deep in cave- wear your gear through mud and crap and get on and off rope frequently, I can say that it is possible to make most systems work for most people and if the user is willing to learn it, adjust it, and develop the physical strength to use it to any degree then yeah, Amy's technique can be made to work. But it is not efficient, nor is it a good choice for someone with her body type. The article exhibits the classic signs of someone who has learned a little, but not enough, and I felt it was irresponsible for an article of that type to have been published in the News without some form of peer-review or alternate viewpoint published at the same time.

Anmar

shibumi wrote:...As a professional who has taught hundreds of people of all shapes and sizes vertical work with every system out there and many hybrids, and done many miles of vertical work from very deep pits and cliffs to deep in cave- wear your gear through mud and crap and get on and off rope frequently,...

What you're using here is an argument of authority - a spurious argument and logical fallacy. Arguments like this one are banned in formal debates because they have nothing to do with the subject at hand. When you go on about how great your are you actually lose credibility.

shibumi wrote:...Amy's technique can be made to work. But it is not efficient, nor is it a good choice for someone with her body type. The article exhibits the classic signs of someone who has learned a little, but not enough, and I felt it was irresponsible for an article of that type to have been published in the News without some form of peer-review or alternate viewpoint published at the same time.

The NSS News is NOT a peer-reviewed scientific journal but obviously it would be better if you got to review all articles about vertical technique from the viewpoint of your awesome awesomeness.

Tlaloc wrote:What you're using here is an argument of authority -

Yes I am, RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!

shibumi wrote:

Tlaloc wrote:What you're using here is an argument of authority -

Yes I am, RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!

Respect can only be earned, not demanded and it's spelled "authority".

Tlaloc wrote:

shibumi wrote:

Tlaloc wrote:What you're using here is an argument of authority -

Yes I am, RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!

Respect can only be earned, not demanded and it's spelled "authority".

Your life will be incomplete if you don't RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!

Tlaloc wrote:

shibumi wrote:

Tlaloc wrote:What you're using here is an argument of authority -

Yes I am, RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!

Respect can only be earned, not demanded and it's spelled "authority".

It is spelled correctly. This is a joke from popular culture, but you don't seem to be in the joking mood. Anmar has in fact earned the respect of the vast majority in the caving community. I suspect you have less of an issue with the way he made his argument as with the content of that argument. However, he happens to be entirely correct. While everyone fully understands the NSS News isn't a peer-reviewed publication, it would be a good idea for articles on caving technique, especially vertical technique, to have some oversight. Otherwise it's possible that we'll see a series of caving technique pieces on helmetless caving, spectra cowstails, and the like.