What did I just read?

[GroundquestMSA]

You touch on a bit of history starting in 2011. OR1 had a sticker photo contest blah blah blah

I was only making a joke because I knew Biddix is a photographer. I don't care about their personal animosities. The thread is about the goofy NEWS article.

As far as the curvy caver article...The NEWS is a magazine not a technical manual. If the content is interesting people may want it...thus they may keep their membership. If it is a yearly collection of dave bunnel sea caves and NSS patches because nobody else is submitting.....

I agree, though I think that articles like the one in question are published because submissions are scarce, not because of the fascinating subject matter.

[wyandottecaver]

well in this case Id say both. Controversial articles get people talking... if not thinking. What happens when someone says "did you see that crazy NEWS article?" and someone says "I dont get that anymore" then maybe they re-think getting a membership.....or just look up the thread on CaveChat! On top of that, it gets people thinking about technical rope issues....rather than not thinking about them and going hand over hand down a clothesline.....

[innermostphoto]

Also in 2011 at for TAG, the SCCI choose one of Amy's pictures of Snail Shell Cave to feature for the picture of the preserve on the large banner that showcases all of their preserves. Bob is the preserve manager and coauthor of the book on Snail Shell Cave... Additionally, at the 2011 TAG Photo Salon, most of Bob's entries were disqualified, and Amy took Best in Show, 2nd, and 3rd place. There has definitely been some animosity since then.

I am completely unaware of any historical events mentioned in 2011 nor am I aware of any picture Amy submitted to the SCCi of Snail Shell Cave. Further, I am unaware of any point in my life when I ever submitted any photos to the TAG photo salon not to mention being disqualified for said photos. Existences of these events are lost from my memory if indeed what you say is true (and they are not) it did not impede you from fabricating some strange and bizarre fantasy you apparently have. Additionally, I have no knowledge of Amy’s photographs with her portraying pasties, stickers, or whatever on her nipples (thank God for that). I would however like to thank Kelly for being correct in her account of the TAG photo salon as the director she should know. I know nothing of jealousy, resentment, animosity, or anything of that nature still, I do agree with Kelly (once again) that Amy’s pictures and her actions speak for themselves.

As typical of the NSS forum it has gone wayyyy off topic and is why I hate this forum. There are too many people on Cavechat spending there pathetic lives waiting on a topic they can pounce on instead of getting off there ass and doing something physical. I asked a question that some of you were kind enough to answer.

[Footleg]

I'm somewhat wary of stepping into a thread full of so many contested versions of events regarding the NSS salons, but one thing that seems to come through is a attitude of ridiculing people because others do not think their salon entries are as good as the established regulars. This seems a real shame and reflects poorly on the NSS IMHO.

..... She can send submissions thousands of miles away to Hidden Earth in the UK (which is MUCH bigger than Convention), and the photos are entered and displayed with zero problems.

As co-ordinator of the Hidden Earth photo salon for many years I have strived to make it as encouraging and welcoming environment for new and established photographers as possible. The event provides an opportunity for photographers to have their work presented to their peers, and to have it judged in competition. I struggle to see why anyone would feel the need to ridicule an entrant apart from jealousy perhaps? Why would any photographer who is new to cave photography feel encouraged to put their work forward in a hostile forum? How do you expect standards to improve if you are not encouraging to new entrants? It is not surprising that the NSS salon has a reputation for being a personal picture gallery for the chosen few if the comments on this thread are representative of how people who are not part of the established 'in crowd' are treated.

[innermostphoto]

I fail to see what "problems" exist entering the photo salon? If you want to enter then do so. Anyone if free to enter the salon as they wish so quit crying. However if you choose to ask people to critique YOUR photos and you don't like their comments then that is YOUR issue because YOU asked for it.

Besides this thread was NOT about photos and quit making it out to be!

[carolcaver]

I believe Bob asked a simple question as to what others thoughts were on the article. Instead you people take this as an opportunity to question Bob’s photography skills and his jealousy of other's photo skills in comparison to his.
I happen to know Bob will compliment good work as easily as he will critique and criticize bad. I’ve seen him do both. If you are too thin skin to take the bad with the good then it would be best to not put your work out there for public consumption. If you can’t take the heat in the kitchen, you probably shouldn’t be cooking.
When Amy’s photography reaches Bob’s caliber and if then he criticizes her work, you can say it’s jealously. Frankly I don’t see that happening. I’ve never seen Bob criticize good work. If you can’t take criticism and use to your advantage to improve yourself then you are the one with the ego problem.
Back to the topic, a frog system is a SIT stand system requiring a low attachment harness. A ropewalking system utilizes a walking stand position and therefore you can use a higher attachment harness. If your belly gets in the way of the sit position, use the rope walking system. If you just HAVE to utilize the sit stand system lose your belly fat. Problem solved.
And by the way, I’ve been using a frog system for the last 10 years with no issue. I’m currently getting older and have started getting more weight around the middle as most do. This has decreased my efficiency with the frog system. Therefore I’ll probably switch over to a rope walking system soon. But then again, I’m comfortable with who I am and don’t have to pretend to be skinny or curvy when I’m not and so will not butcher the frog system to accommodate something I’m not.

[Footleg]

Sorry to bring up photography here again
I tried hard not to name names in my last post on this thread as I was talking about a general impression gathered from this and other threads, not trying to point the finger at anyone. I was primarily commenting on the attitude I perceived that if a photographers skill was less than another then their work should be talked down or dismissed as worthless rather than encouragement given. But let me make it crystal clear that I was not in any way implying that Bob falls into that camp. In fact I was not making any inference at all that Bob has made any comments about Amy's or anyone else's work (I have no knowledge of any comments if any were ever made in the first place). I certainly was not inferring anything about the quality of Bob's own work (which I hold in very high regard) or implying in any way what Bob feels about anyone else's photographic success or otherwise.

To try and end at least vaguely back on the original topic of this thread, I'll echo a point made earlier by someone else. Articles get published by an editor based on the quality of articles they receive. I've not read the article in question so I cannot comment on it, but if people think it is not the standard they want to see in the magazine then maybe they should start contributing something themselves which they think is better rather than complaining about those who have at least made some effort?

[Chads93GT]

Maybe y'all should blame the editor as its the editors job to edit articles for content. The lines about nude photos and tracing weren't necessary and accomplished nothing. The comments about the weight of the chest and back side accomplish nothing either and could have been edited or all together thrown out due to being irrelevant or poorly worded. The job of an editor isn't to simply cut and paste.

[Extremeophile]

I'm somewhat wary of stepping into a thread full of so many contested versions of events regarding the NSS salons, but one thing that seems to come through is a attitude of ridiculing people because others do not think their salon entries are as good as the established regulars. This seems a real shame and reflects poorly on the NSS IMHO.

..... She can send submissions thousands of miles away to Hidden Earth in the UK (which is MUCH bigger than Convention), and the photos are entered and displayed with zero problems.

As co-ordinator of the Hidden Earth photo salon for many years I have strived to make it as encouraging and welcoming environment for new and established photographers as possible. The event provides an opportunity for photographers to have their work presented to their peers, and to have it judged in competition. I struggle to see why anyone would feel the need to ridicule an entrant apart from jealousy perhaps? Why would any photographer who is new to cave photography feel encouraged to put their work forward in a hostile forum? How do you expect standards to improve if you are not encouraging to new entrants? It is not surprising that the NSS salon has a reputation for being a personal picture gallery for the chosen few if the comments on this thread are representative of how people who are not part of the established 'in crowd' are treated.

With all due respect, and I'm sure the Hidden Earth salon is very good, but you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the NSS salon. The organization and judging at these salons is extremely professional and the critiques have always been constructive and encouraging. It's true that many of the same photographers are regular entrants, and the salon would benefit by having more novice entries, but I believe the issue is that all entrants are judged in the same pool and many novices feel intimidated by the competition, many of whom are professionals. I don't believe entrants are intimidated by the judging and I've never witnessed anything that could be considered ridicule. Cavechat is another matter, and ridicule here is business as usual. My apologies for continuing to deviate from the thread topic.

[Batgirl]

I found the article a bit ridiculous. As cavers, we must all make adjustments and choose equipment that best fits our body type. That's why there are so many different types of climbing systems to choose from. That being said, IMHO, Amy's article might be interesting for new cavers who have no experience or real understanding of the distribution of weight while climbing.

Constructive Criticism:
If you had done some research and asked other top heavy cavers what they did to balance their weight on rope, then tried those manuevers yourself to see how they worked or didn't work for you and then analyzed the differences in a constructive article, it would have been more interesting. But instead, most of us couldn't get past the fact that you included the size and weight of each of your boobs and ass as well as a drawing of your naked body. These things are irrelevant and do not contribute to a good analysis. You could have just stated your measurements and left it at that. We would have gotten the picture. Why was it necessary to inclue that specific information?

[Stridergdm]

Did someone confuse "On Rope" with "Say Cheese"?

Seriously, let's focus on the article.

I've made it about 1 page into the article. While I think the overall topic is interesting and relevant and from talking to several women with body shapes similar to what is described in the article, I think it's important for folks to realize that techniques sometimes have to be adapted, etc.

That said, the article definitely could have used some editing. As others have said, it seems to have salacious details that are not only unnecessary, but take away from the general value of the article.

[LukeM]

I found the article a bit ridiculous. As cavers, we must all make adjustments and choose equipment that best fits our body type. That's why there are so many different types of climbing systems to choose from. That being said, IMHO, Amy's article might be interesting for new cavers who have no experience or real understanding of the distribution of weight while climbing.

Constructive Criticism:
If you had done some research and asked other top heavy cavers what they did to balance their weight on rope, then tried those manuevers yourself to see how they worked or didn't work for you and then analyzed the differences in a constructive article, it would have been more interesting. But instead, most of us couldn't get past the fact that you included the size and weight of each of your boobs and ass as well as a drawing of your naked body. These things are irrelevant and do not contribute to a good analysis. You could have just stated your measurements and left it at that. We would have gotten the picture. Why was it necessary to inclue that specific information?

I thought the outline of her body was a useful tool to understand the weight distribution issues she was talking about. It was just an outline after all, and not graphic in any way. A very similar drawing would result from tracing someone fully clothed in spandex.

[Chads93GT]

It's not about the outline. The outline is fine. Describing just how you got the outline in fine detail is what was unnecessary and a major distraction.

[baa43003]

As a judge for the NSS Print Salon, for both the 2011 and 2012 Convention, I would like to set the facts straight on Marduke's accusations.

First, Amy's photos were accepted and displayed and judged during the 2011 Convention. She can contact the Print Salon chairperson for a copy of her scores.

Second, the guidelines for submitting prints for the 2012 Convention clearly stated: "All entries must be delivered to Print Salon area ... at the NSS Convention Print Salon exhibition area, or mailed ..." (see NSS News, April 2012, page 23). That year, someone other than Amy, dropped off her prints at the registration table, not the salon area. I can't speak for the persons working registration that day, but I'm sure they were very busy and it was not their job or responsibility to then submit the prints. Likewise, it was not the responsibility of the Print Salon Chairperson or judges, to wander around Convention looking for more prints to enter. By the time Amy's friend realized the prints were not displayed, judging had already been completed. I'm sorry Amy's prints were not properly entered, I hear they were quite good.

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to get back to figuring out how to weigh my boobs and butt, I'm really curious!

[jharman2]

This is exactly why american caving techniques aren't taken seriously.

The author could sum up the article by saying "I'm out of shape and therefore find SRT quite challenging".