What did I just read?

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What did I just read?

Postby innermostphoto » Mar 19, 2013 9:05 pm

This months issue of the NSS News contains an article titled "Vertical Caving and the Curvy Caver". Is this something the NSS Vertical section approves / is in agreement with? Still, I understand this is only one persons opinion off the wall as it may be.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby GroundquestMSA » Mar 19, 2013 10:14 pm

I found it rather amusing, if pointless. Now we know how one person chooses to climb and why. Does the NSS Vertical Section need to agree? If anyone feels that they can benefit from any of the ideas, hooray. Even if they are all wrong, who cares, no one is going to die from a high attachment point or whatever other configural modifications are suggested.

But I suspect your real issue involves photography and jealousy eh Bob? :tonguecheek:
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Mar 20, 2013 7:45 am

I don't think Bob (or any other notable photographer) is the least bit jealous of Amy's photography. How many ribbons/awards has Bob received from the NSS (too many to count) and how many has Amy (a big curvy 0...!). I also think she offers some of the worst advice to women cavers to wear pasties on their nips. Like wth, we are not strippers sliding 100 feet down a rope pole to the bottom of a pit.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Marduke » Mar 20, 2013 11:41 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:I found it rather amusing, if pointless. Now we know how one person chooses to climb and why. Does the NSS Vertical Section need to agree? If anyone feels that they can benefit from any of the ideas, hooray. Even if they are all wrong, who cares, no one is going to die from a high attachment point or whatever other configural modifications are suggested.

But I suspect your real issue involves photography and jealousy eh Bob? :tonguecheek:


You touch on a bit of history starting in 2011. OR1 had a sticker photo contest on Facebook. Most people just photoshopped the sticker into some photos. Amy took actual photographs using the stickers in an artistic manner involving the female form and won the contest. Maybe it was prudishness for using the female form in an artistic representation, maybe it was distaste of Amy's increasing photography skills, or maybe it was jealousy of the... physical endowment of the subject, but certain friendships between certain female photographers ended about this time...

Also in 2011 at for TAG, the SCCI choose one of Amy's pictures of Snail Shell Cave to feature for the picture of the preserve on the large banner that showcases all of their preserves. Bob is the preserve manager and coauthor of the book on Snail Shell Cave... Additionally, at the 2011 TAG Photo Salon, most of Bob's entries were disqualified, and Amy took Best in Show, 2nd, and 3rd place. There has definitely been some animosity since then.

There are no "NSS Awards" because for BOTH the 2011 AND 2012 conventions, Amy's entries were registered and submitted with all appropriate documentation and fees, and even hand delivered in 2012. But because she was not physically there to see that they were displayed for judging, the entries were conveniently left at the entry table and NOT displayed for judging. One of the volunteers helping work the photo salon submissions is a certain rival photographer... Which is sad. She can send submissions thousands of miles away to Hidden Earth in the UK (which is MUCH bigger than Convention), and the photos are entered and displayed with zero problems.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby graveleye » Mar 20, 2013 12:50 pm

this thread , my friends, is why I do not submit any of my artwork or photography to salons or competitions.
As an artist, musician, composer, and sometimes photographer, I've had many years to realize that I really don't care for my creations to be set up for judgment.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Mar 20, 2013 12:59 pm

Brian, since you brought all this "history" up, let's get the facts straight.

Marduke wrote: You touch on a bit of history starting in 2011. OR1 had a sticker photo contest on Facebook. Most people just photoshopped the sticker into some photos. Amy took actual photographs using the stickers in an artistic manner involving the female form and won the contest. Maybe it was prudishness for using the female form in an artistic representation, maybe it was distaste of Amy's increasing photography skills, or maybe it was jealousy of the... physical endowment of the subject, but certain friendships between certain female photographers ended about this time...


I personally spoke to Bruce & Gini about this after it happened. Neither of them were aware of Amy's photo and in fact were out of town when one of their employees decided to choose it as the winner. Gini was not very happy and immediately took the facebook page down that had Amy's pictures using their LOGO to cover her nipples. They did not feel it was an appropriate image for their business. And she did it all for a $20 carabiner prize but then only selected one for $13. My so called friendship or acquaintance status as I would say did not end because she won a $20 prize but instead because of the way she tries to use her body to gain the attention of cavers instead of using her brain or skills. This is not the type of image I portray and when Amy (who was calling herself CUDDLE SLUT at that time) asked if she could put her childish crayon drawings, once again degrading women and using them as sexual objects in MY PHOTO BOOTH at TAG, I said NO. This is not how I represent myself. I take pride in my work and being known for my skills. And no, I am not jealous of Amy, LMAO... :rofl:


Marduke wrote: Also in 2011 at for TAG, the SCCI choose one of Amy's pictures of Snail Shell Cave to feature for the picture of the preserve on the large banner that showcases all of their preserves. Bob is the preserve manager and coauthor of the book on Snail Shell Cave... Additionally, at the 2011 TAG Photo Salon, most of Bob's entries were disqualified, and Amy took Best in Show, 2nd, and 3rd place. There has definitely been some animosity since then.


I was the host for the Photo Salon that year and Bob did not have any photos in the salon nor was he disqualified. The TAG photo salon is not sanctioned or really even taken seriously. Amy can take pride in knowing that she received $0.50 ribbons that I purchased at the dollar store.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby durtgrrl » Mar 20, 2013 1:41 pm

Going back to the original post, I have the same question - what, if any, is the position of the Vertical Section with respect to this article? I know that the NSS news submission standards are somewhat flexible, but that was a pretty bad article in many ways, including the basic technical concepts buried among the extraneous detail.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby NZcaver » Mar 20, 2013 2:24 pm

Marduke wrote:There are no "NSS Awards" because for BOTH the 2011 AND 2012 conventions, Amy's entries were registered and submitted with all appropriate documentation and fees, and even hand delivered in 2012. But because she was not physically there to see that they were displayed for judging, the entries were conveniently left at the entry table and NOT displayed for judging.

I cannot speak to the other instances, but I can assure you Amy's prints were displayed for judging at the 2011 convention in Colorado. I was one of the judges.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Marduke » Mar 20, 2013 2:36 pm

NZcaver wrote:
Marduke wrote:There are no "NSS Awards" because for BOTH the 2011 AND 2012 conventions, Amy's entries were registered and submitted with all appropriate documentation and fees, and even hand delivered in 2012. But because she was not physically there to see that they were displayed for judging, the entries were conveniently left at the entry table and NOT displayed for judging.

I cannot speak to the other instances, but I can assure you Amy's prints were displayed for judging at the 2011 convention in Colorado. I was one of the judges.


I did slightly misspeak for 2011. I checked the letter sent to the BOG on the matter, and they were displayed but NOT judged because they were said to not meet the 8x10 requirement. They were printed as 8x10's, and when returned, they measured as 8x10's. Maybe one of the judge's rulers was a millimeter shorter??
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Mar 20, 2013 3:13 pm

Is this the article where Amy weighs her boobs individually? Yeah, this is pretty much why I let my NSS News membership lapse.
If the NSS Vertical section has an official stance on boob measurement techniques, I can't say I'm all that interested.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Scott McCrea » Mar 20, 2013 3:22 pm

The "high-rise harness" is a feasible way to keep cavers upright, in certain situations. It's pretty much a moot point when using a chest roller climbing system, since the roller will keep them upright.

When rappelling, it could help. But, if using a rack, a user needs to make sure that their safety will reach above the rack and that it can be easily reached. If not, a shorter rappel device may be necessary.

I'm sure the NSS News editor would LOVE to get some articles from anyone that has an opinion on Amy's thoughts.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Extremeophile » Mar 20, 2013 3:51 pm

Marduke wrote:
NZcaver wrote:
Marduke wrote:There are no "NSS Awards" because for BOTH the 2011 AND 2012 conventions, Amy's entries were registered and submitted with all appropriate documentation and fees, and even hand delivered in 2012. But because she was not physically there to see that they were displayed for judging, the entries were conveniently left at the entry table and NOT displayed for judging.

I cannot speak to the other instances, but I can assure you Amy's prints were displayed for judging at the 2011 convention in Colorado. I was one of the judges.


I did slightly misspeak for 2011. I checked the letter sent to the BOG on the matter, and they were displayed but NOT judged because they were said to not meet the 8x10 requirement. They were printed as 8x10's, and when returned, they measured as 8x10's. Maybe one of the judge's rulers was a millimeter shorter??

I can also vouch for the fact that they were displayed in CO. I recall that her prints were definitely on the small side, so maybe they were 8x10 when including the mat. Unlike the slide salon, all prints that were entered were displayed, but I recall her prints in particular triggering a discussion about whether some screening was necessary.

I believe the quality of her photos has improved immeasurably since then. The photos in the Mexico article and a recent NSS News are quite good. She is choosing much better subject matter and exercising far more photographic skill.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby Cody JW » Mar 20, 2013 4:07 pm

I have tried to use a high attachment seat and have found that it helps some. But I am still in an uncomfortable position on a longer drop. I have a 48 inch chest and I am VERY top heavy on rope. My legs are not that large in diameter so they do not do much to counter the upper body like I had seen Amy do in her video. I suspect maybe her leg to upper body ratio is different than mine??. Scott is correct, for ropewalker it is a non issue as you have a chest roller supporting you. For some trim body types it is also a non issue. For rappelling the remedy is simple- just use some kind of device that attaches somewhere on your rack and attach the other end to your roller.There are many ways this can be done. Frogging ?? I normally just do that on shorter stuff so even being top heavy it is not really an issue .I tried using a high attach point frogging and it gave me too much slop on the croll position and caused trouble self starting. One reason I use a frog is because it is compact so I prefer compact everything when frogging . I find the Fractio ( or similar) more compact than many high attach harnesses I have seen. It may work for her and that is fine, just really did not for me. Everybody is different and may require different methods to achieve what they consider most comfortable.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby NZcaver » Mar 20, 2013 7:19 pm

Extremeophile wrote:I can also vouch for the fact that they were displayed in CO. I recall that her prints were definitely on the small side, so maybe they were 8x10 when including the mat. Unlike the slide salon, all prints that were entered were displayed, but I recall her prints in particular triggering a discussion about whether some screening was necessary.

Now that you mention it, I do vaguely recall her prints being smaller than most and possibly smaller than 8 x 10 inches not including the mat. The name labels are only revealed after scoring is complete, so we don't actually know who the photographers are until then. Regardless, I do not recall images taken by Amy (or any other photographer) being disqualified or otherwise not included in the scoring/judging process that year due to size or quality. I also know nothing about "the letter sent to the BOG on the matter." Why was there a letter sent to the BOG?

I believe the quality of her photos has improved immeasurably since then. The photos in the Mexico article and a recent NSS News are quite good. She is choosing much better subject matter and exercising far more photographic skill.

I agree.
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Re: What did I just read?

Postby wyandottecaver » Mar 20, 2013 7:33 pm

Amy is controversial in most ways and virtually anyone can find something to disagree with her about...I have a list :big grin: However, before Amy was a twinkle in the NSS eye I and most of my point and shoot cave photographers regularly ridiculed the NSS photo salons. Perhaps there were highly technical nuances of skill we missed...but in many cases the winners were not the best photos in our opinions. Some repetition of winners is inevitable when you have a low applicant pool to begin with, but in some cases it seemed like a personal art gallery.

As far as the curvy caver article...The NEWS is a magazine not a technical manual. If the content is interesting people may want it...thus they may keep their membership. If it is a yearly collection of dave bunnel sea caves and NSS patches because nobody else is submitting.....
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