Rack recommendations

[Scott McCrea]

You can't go wrong with a standard length SMC rack with SS U-shaped bars. You can do any drop in the world (and beyond?) with one. The only question left to ask yourself is, "straight or twisted eye?" The answer depends on a couple things--your harness and how you connect the rack to it. Your goal is to get the rack oriented so it is perpendicular to your body, instead of flat against or parallel. Racks work better in a perpendicular orientation. Each link between your rack and harness will change the orientation. If you have a standard caving harness (with a D-shaped/half-round Mallion screw-link) and you connect your rack to it with a biner or screwlink, you should have a twisted-eye rack. If you connect the rack directly to the D, then you should have a straight-eye rack. etc, etc. But, since money is no object, you should just get one of each.

[graveleye]

But, since money is no object, you should just get one of each.

now let's not get carried away here!

The one we used, and my trainer used is the straight-eye - he is sort of recommending that set-up, I guess because that is what he is comfortable with.

[Scott McCrea]

The one we used, and my trainer used is the straight-eye - he is sort of recommending that set-up, I guess because that is what he is comfortable with.

Either way 'works'. But, perpendicular works better.

[Princess Butterfly]

I'm a Bassett Bar girl myself. My standard rack I had to build with an SMC frame and Bassett bars, I've recently seen some of the vendors carrying them that way. Nothing against SMC bars, I guess it’s more of a personal preference thing. The Bassett bars provide a greater degree of offset, which translates into more friction. You can tell the difference between the bars just by looking at them too. The Bassett bars are tumbled so they have a textured finish, not polished to the mirror finish that the SMC bars are so they provide a smoother ride. I have them on both my standard and 24" racks. I love my 24" rack with the Bassett bars and do everything over 400' with it (and a lot of things much smaller if I don't have to lug it through the cave). The longest I've done on the standard is Whiteside (650') which works, but the spacing on the 24" makes it much easier. But this will depend on the type of rope you’re using and how much you weigh, so the standard rack should be good for you for a while. Definitely get a hyperbar and the grooved first bar.

We teach the NSS basic vertical class at the house on Wednesday nights if you can make it to the Bham area and want to try out some of the gear.

[graveleye]

Either way 'works'. But, perpendicular works better.

in both applications?

[Tim White]

Either way 'works'. But, perpendicular works better.

in both applications?

IMHO Scott is right on...perpendicular to your body is best.

I don't follow what you mean with "in both applications?"

[NZcaver]

Not to be a lone voice in the wilderness or anything, but the micro-rack with hyper-bar is also a popular choice for cavers. Especially if think you'll be spending more time doing regular drops rather than all those single pitch multiple-hundred-foot-plus ones. You can't add or drop bars on a micro-rack (except the hyper-bar), but it's a little smaller and lighter than those full size racks.

Also, I can't say that using my micro-rack parallel to the body has ever been a problem for me - but then I'm not adding and dropping bars with it. However when I bought my (seldom-used) full size SMC rack, I did choose the twisted eye model for that reason.

Graveleye - have you had (or will you have) the opportunity to practice with different types of racks or other descenders? Just asking...

[JoeyS]

Not to be a lone voice in the wilderness or anything, but the micro-rack with hyper-bar is also a popular choice for cavers....

.........Also, I can't say that using my micro-rack parallel to the body has ever been a problem for me - but then I'm not adding and dropping bars with it. However when I bought my (seldom-used) full size SMC rack, I did choose the twisted eye model for that reason.....

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not anywhere close to being a vertical expert...
I agree though, I use an SMC 90 degree twist rack with (6) u shaped bars tied in with a locking biner to my oval maillon, so I'm looking at the cross section of the U bars once I'm tensioned up. This seems to work well.
However, like NZ, my microrack, connected to my mallion with a long oval screwlink, positions my micro so that the bars, lengthwise, are parallel to my shoulderblades. I would think it would be odd in any other arrangement. I like to watch the rope as it rides over the hyperbar (so I can avoid that knife edge crack in the rollpin, lol..). I would not be able to do this if the microrack was perp. to my blades.
The more I use this micro-rack, the more I'm liking it...

[Scott McCrea]

Micro-rack orientation is not really important, because there is not as much variable friction available as with a regular rack. Dropping and adding bars is not really possible on a micro-rack. I use my micro in a parallel set up but then twist it one way or the other depending on whether or not I'm using the hyperbar.

Micro-racks are more complicated and less forgiving than regular racks, therefore, I think of them as an advanced skill level device and don't recommend them to beginners.

[NZcaver]

Micro-racks are more complicated and less forgiving than regular racks, therefore, I think of them as an advanced skill level device and don't recommend them to beginners.

Hmmm... I tend to feel the opposite is true.

Micro-racks are fairly simple, convenient and compact, assuming you're using a single rope of about 10-11mm in diameter. When rigging the rack onto the rope, you generally thread all 4 bars every time. It's pretty hard to suicide-rig, because the 2 swinging bars don't latch. {EDIT: Oops - the bars on my long micro-rack actually do latch. My mistake.} Once you're decending, you're either using the hyper-bar or you're not. There's no real need to compress the bars with your "other" hand to add friction, because taking a turn over the hyper-bar does that for you - a kind of "force multiplier". Apart from the hyper-bar there's no adding or dropping bars, and the rack is easy to lock off by pushing a loop through the bottom of the frame and up over the hyper-bar with a twist.

The way I see it, "regular" J-racks introduce a number of other complexities (which is not to say these are bad features, of course). The bars swing both ways, they can be added or dropped in mid-rappel, and friction is managed by finding that perfect balance - keeping some tension on the rope with one hand, while spreading or compressing bars with the other. It's a good system with some nice features, particularly when doing deep drops, but to me it just seems a tad more complicated than using a micro-rack.

Personally, I have no qualms about beginners being taught on micro-racks. I guess - with the right instruction - learning on a full-size J-rack should be fine too.


PS - I thought all this sounded familiar! I just went back and re-read the whole thread - including where this issue was discussed in detail on page 1. So it seems we've been down this road before, and Scott and I may just have to agree to disagree on some points.

Incidentally (and thanks in part to some previous advice on this very thread), I now own a long micro-rack as well as my short one - both with single hyper-bars.

[hank moon]

Micro-rack orientation is not really important, because there is not as much variable friction available as with a regular rack. Dropping and adding bars is not really possible on a micro-rack. I use my micro in a parallel set up but then twist it one way or the other depending on whether or not I'm using the hyperbar.

Micro-racks are more complicated and less forgiving than regular racks, therefore, I think of them as an advanced skill level device and don't recommend them to beginners.

Poll request to Scott: on all the drops you've done, on what percentage of them did you add/drop bars from necessity (not practice)? I bet it's hardly ever done...

[graveleye]

sorry, by "both applications" I was referring to how the rack was to be attached to the harness - that was something Scott mentioned when describing the differences between the rack eyes.

I probably shouldnt even be in this thread, knowing only about .01% of what the rest of you do.

[Princess Butterfly]

Graveleye, you never know until you ask.

Micro-racks are more complicated and less forgiving than regular racks, therefore, I think of them as an advanced skill level device and don't recommend them to beginners.

I have to agree with Scott on this point. In our vertical class you won't even get to use a microrack until you've mastered the standard rack. The munter hitch, ATC, figure 8 and bobbin also come later in the class too.

I looked back through the post and I don't think you've told us how much you weigh. Some people assume that smaller people need smaller racks, but if fact its just the opposite. The lighter you are the greater rack length you need, so you can spread your bars to actually go anywhere. You don't want to have to feed on a micro rack, the bottom bar can pop off and the rope can come off the 3rd bar and thus leaving you on two bars. Should you ever find yourself getting into that situation, if you recognize it fast enough you can throw the rope over the hyperbar or put your safety on (this has happened to TinY). So if the rope is muddy or you don't' have the body weight to start with you don't want to use it. I think Carroll Bassett even has a little piece of paper included in the plastic bag the micros are sold in that says DON'T FEED. Lockoff can also be problematic on a microrack if the rope is stiff or muddy.

It is possible to pop off bars on the standard rack (I have done this on the 24" due to improper setup), but since you have so many more to start with (5 or 6 and not 4) its a lot more forgiving. I didn't recognize it in time, but I had a french wrap on, so that stopped me from getting into an out of control rappel.

[Scott McCrea]

sorry, by "both applications" I was referring to how the rack was to be attached to the harness - that was something Scott mentioned when describing the differences between the rack eyes.

OIC. Yes, in both applications a perpendicular orientation works better. However, I don't recommend attaching a standard J-rack directly to a Mallion D. It can cause problems when changing over while ropewalking.

I probably shouldnt even be in this thread, knowing only about .01% of what the rest of you do.

No worries. Not knowing something has never stopped you before.

[graveleye]

No worries. Not knowing something has never stopped you before.

I thought I was the resident smart***! Funny though, but that is a true statement about me in general.

Oh, I am 5'8", 140-145lbs, like long walks on the beach, puppies,...etc