Defect in Petzl ascenders: French article

[Nico]

If you're using an ascender as a climbing safety, you may want to keep the cowstail as short as practical...

True.. if he was holding the ascender at the wrong angle (see article pictures) I guess he definately did, the lenght of the cowstail could have helped by pulling the ascender into a more upright position where the teeth could have caught the rope.

[caverd]

Last year while climbing out of Cemetary Pit (GA), I was climbing tandem below my friend's son. He was using a double bungie rope walker system with Petzl Basic (at foot) and Croll (at knee). Both were new with the plastic thumb pieces. Both came off rope three times during his climb. I tried my best to see if there was something he was doing that would cause this, but there was nothing I could detect. I'll have my friend check his son's ascenders to see if there is any match to the batch codes given in the previous postings. I've used the older Petzl designs (metal thumb piece) and never had any problems. Watching that display at Cemetary certainly made me very untrusting of the new design.

[Scott McCrea]

Last year while climbing out of Cemetary Pit (GA), I was climbing tandem below my friend's son. He was using a double bungie rope walker system with Petzl Basic (at foot) and Croll (at knee). Both were new with the plastic thumb pieces. Both came off rope three times during his climb. I tried my best to see if there was something he was doing that would cause this, but there was nothing I could detect. I'll have my friend check his son's ascenders to see if there is any match to the batch codes given in the previous postings. I've used the older Petzl designs (metal thumb piece) and never had any problems. Watching that display at Cemetary certainly made me very untrusting of the new design.

I had the same thing happen a few years ago in Ellison's. Both of us climbing tandem had our foot Basic's come off the rope multiple times. When I got home I Dremeled (filed) the plastic part down so only a little nub sticks out only about 1/8". It hasn't come off rope since. I suspect the plastic part was catching on something and getting pulled open. I think I may have asked Hank about it in this Forum, but that was a couple versions ago. I'll see if I can find it. I'll also try to take a picture of my modification.

Later... Nevermind. My conversation with Hank was via email not this Forum. And it was back in August of 2000. Can you believe I still have an email that old and that I was able to find it?

[Tim White]

Later... Nevermind. My conversation with Hank was via email not this Forum. And it was back in August of 2000. Can you believe I still have an email that old and that I was able to find it?

yep, I sure can.

"where is that post?!" "where did I save that e-mail?!"

Maybe Scott can help!

[hunter]

Hey, does anyone know about when the problem ascenders were sold? I need to go check the batch numbers on mine but I want to pass this on to some other people and it would be handy to include a rough date range....
I'll also note that I have been using Petzl's with the plastic thumb catch a great deal in the last five years and have never had one come off (just some slipping due to massive mud buildup in one case).

James Hunter

P.S. There was once a thread about new smilies and it just occured to me there is only 1 smilie with rope in it. Perhaps a few more would be in order, especially in this section.

[Sean Ryan]

Last year while climbing out of Cemetary Pit (GA), I was climbing tandem ...

I had the same thing happen a few years ago in Ellison's. Both of us climbing tandem...

So that's multiple popped ascenders in two instances where people were climbing tandem. Would the difference of multiple people on the same rope (extra tautness, constant bouncing, extra overall stress, etc.) increase the chance of an ascender popping off?

[Scott McCrea]

I started a new thread about the Petzl Basics coming off the rope

[Ralph E. Powers]

Last year while climbing out of Cemetary Pit (GA), I was climbing tandem ...

I had the same thing happen a few years ago in Ellison's. Both of us climbing tandem...

So that's multiple popped ascenders in two instances where people were climbing tandem. Would the difference of multiple people on the same rope (extra tautness, constant bouncing, extra overall stress, etc.) increase the chance of an ascender popping off?

I"ve climbed tandem out of long drops before... never had this problem, my gear is Petzl made, same with the gear used by my fellow cavers.

I've had KONG ascenders slip on me before but never Petzl's.

[caverd]

I've had KONG ascenders slip on me before but never Petzl's.[/quote]

I don't know if this relates to your experience, but....

Some years back, Kong had a manufacturing defect that affected the ability of the ascenders to grab the rope. The spikes in the cam are normally quite pointed. There was a problem with the spikes that rounded them off such that they could not effectively hold the rope. My son tried climbing with these and they simply would not work. I contacted Kong and convinced them that it would be in their best interest to replace my son's ascenders free of charge. The new ones work great. I've used a Kong ascender for about 15 years (pre-manufacturing problem) without ever having a problem.

[Dangerjudy]

My ascender is numbered 922491. But here is a picture of it. Do y'all think it's OK?

[Peggy Renwick]

The Italians are getting into the discussion now about the French article, on their own list-serv. Like you guys, they're not convinced that the accident happened because of defective gear, but they're debating whether equipment-makers should take more care to see that their gear won't come off the rope, or whether it was the fault of the climber, because of the way he held his ascender.

A couple <i>speleologi</i> have commented that when climbing non-vertical slopes, a climber should use both hands on the upper ascender, such that the left hand (on a right-handed Petzl Ascension) is doing the pulling, weighting the ascender so that the cam jams onto the rope. The right hand, meanwhile, just kinda trails along behind, clenched onto the handle.

Everybody's in agreement that the thumb-catches made from plastic are crap, because they're very hard to open; I agree with this, which is why I still use an old-style croll with a ring-shaped metal catch. The Italians care especially about difficulty in opening ascenders for two reasons: a) they have lots of rebelays in their caves, so they need to be able to remove and re-apply ascenders quickly when passing rebelays; b) they have a lively network of caving schools: each group throughout the country (well, most groups) offer an annual class on caving, in which neophytes sign up (and pay) for several weeks' worth of theory and in-cave instruction. This kind of a training system really makes sense when 75% of your country's caves are vertical. Anyway! In a training situation, beginning Alpine cavers get frustrated pretty quickly if they have to fight their gear, so an impossible-to-open ascender is a no-no.

The Italians have also mentioned a new chest ascender, made by the Italian company Repetto ( http://www.repettosport.it ). Unfortunately there's no photo of this mythical item in their catalog ("coming soon!"), but according to the description you can open the ascender in "one smooth movement," while at the same time it can't accidentally detach itself from the rope.

One caver writes that he drilled a little hole in the latch and put a cord through it, to facilitate opening, and hasn't had a problem since.

Then they get into deep philosophical rants about the details of technique, as they are wont to do, and remark on Petzl's move towards producing gear for construction workers rather than cavers.

[bonniecrystal]

http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
This recent incident is very similar to an incident that was reported 2 years ago, see link above. Petzl DECLINED TO DO A DESIGN REVIEW at that time. Petzl DECLINED TO RECALL at that time. Petzl DECLINED TO PUBLISH WARNINGS at that time.

[Ralph E. Powers]

I've had KONG ascenders slip on me before but never Petzl's.

I don't know if this relates to your experience, but....

Some years back, Kong had a manufacturing defect that affected the ability of the ascenders to grab the rope. The spikes in the cam are normally quite pointed. There was a problem with the spikes that rounded them off such that they could not effectively hold the rope. My son tried climbing with these and they simply would not work. I contacted Kong and convinced them that it would be in their best interest to replace my son's ascenders free of charge. The new ones work great. I've used a Kong ascender for about 15 years (pre-manufacturing problem) without ever having a problem.[/quote]

Aye, I've still the same Kong ascender... just checked it a few seconds ago... the teeth are still sharp and angled slightly downward so that they'll grip the rope. But I've had 'em slip before so I know just to be wary with it and expect it to on each step. I don't let anyone else use it except me, which is rarely and mostly when I'm training and all my Petzl ones are being used by my students.

[Peggy Renwick]

Once again, via the Italian list-serv but in French (that's a bit too technical for me):

http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/SportNews?News=142

Ooh, but now there's an Italian version that I can translate! It'll be a tad wooden, but I'll do my best.

From http://www.scintilena.com/?p=232#more-232

<b>"Risk of Ascender Slippage during self-belayed climbing using only one ascender connected to a cowstail"</b>

(See in the technical note the diagrams (2) Climbing and (5) Movement on rope with a "mixed" structure). An accident happened in this situation. A caver who was ascending a pit by climbing was attached by his own ascender connected to a cowstail. Since the pitch was against a wall, with one's feet on flowstone formations, the caver was using his ascender as a hand-hold to lift himself up. The ascender didn't grab and it made him slip for 7 meters (without serious consequences).

<b>WARNING</b>, with respect to the actual principles of operation of the ascender, the following factors can impede or slow the grabbing action (see technical note):
- Mud, a finger in the closure or hand on the cam can prevent the contact of the teeth with the rope.
- Pulling obliquely on the ascender with respect to the rope, caused by placing the hand too high or too low (distante).
- A weighted, sideways/crooked/horizontal or stiff rope.
- Wear and tear on the cam's teeth. When the ascender is not weighted, it's possible for it to open or for the cam to slip. <b>On the other hand once climbing has begun and the ascender has been weighted, we have never seen a case in which this product has slipped. For this reason the use of two ascenders, with a cowstail connected to the upper ascender, is always recommended. The ascender only has the possibility to slip when it is moving. </b> [my emphasis]

To limit this risk, make sure to:
- maintain a correct hand position (in diagram 2 of the technical note),
- If you can't avoid pulling obliquely with respect to the rope, then depending on the situation pass the rope through the carabiner linking it to the cowstail (bottom left, "OK" in tech. note) and/or put a carabiner [the Italians have a verb for that! "moschettonare" - "carabinerize"! That is AWESOME! OK sorry.] through one of the upper holes on the ascender, taking care that the cord passes through the carabiner itself (bottom right, "OK" in tech.note). See the drawings.

Product information:
<b>Even if theoretically this phenomenon can occur with all models of ASCENSION and BASIC ascenders</b>, [the problem] seems to be accentuated in the first series with the thumb-catch in polycarbonate, made in 1988 and whose serial numbers are:

B17 R from 97206 to9109.
B17 L from 97253 to 99091.
B18 from 97308 to 99112.

The serial number is stamped near the top of the back of the product.

In 1999, the thumb-catch and then the spring <i>di richiamo</i> were modified. These modifications unfortunately resulted in the requirement of a more delicate/precise movement while downclimbing, and in an increased difficulty in opening the latch, but these modifications have allowed the reduction in situations that could prevent or slow the camming action.

The accident happened on an ascender of this series, and this fact has pressed us to remind you of this danger.

For those who desire it, we will offer to replace those products (with the above serial numbers) if you send them to PETZL S.A.V. 38 920 Crolles [France].

However, Petzl reserves the right to not replace products with extreme wear and tear.

Greater information and technical news can be found on the webpages of the <a href="http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=523">BASIC</a> and the <a href="http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=573">ASCENSION</a>.

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Whew! That was a fun exercise.

[Scott McCrea]

Wow, Peggy! Thanks for passing on this info AND for translating.

"carabinerize"... I like that.