Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby eyecave » Feb 3, 2013 9:45 pm

gentlemen....gentlemen......the french are right, in a sense.......to use the techniques employed in TAG in european caves is stupid and ridiculous......the french techniques are much better.......in those types of caves....and..you must realize that if not good for the french it must be of no use at all... :down: ..

but here in america we have some long pits...and we build ropes capable of withstanding abrasion and we like rigging in water...both races are right gentlemen..both nationals are correct...they are different, right for their part of the world......i personally like TAG... :bow: ..they can have their alpine caves......

the beginning of intelligence is the realization of your own stupidity........
selfishness can naturally govern your every action and the actions of all your neighbors.......
food satiation is on a delay switch.......idiot.......
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby eyecave » Feb 3, 2013 11:07 pm

Tlaloc wrote:
Chads93GT wrote:The racist comment has to get the award for the dumbests post of the century.


It went way over YOUR head anyway. What Marbach and Tourte are saying is that you and all Americans are ignorant barbarians and this is why you use the crappy (non-French) vertical techniques that you do.


marbach and tourte are simply unimaginative sir............TAG vertical techniques are not as efficient in French caves as are french techniques.....their ideas are ridiculous in TAG...and the equipment we use in TAG is different.......ie we use ropes that resist erosion.........we are vertically blessed with long freefall pits.....we also have an affinity for waterfalls and rigging the rope deliberately in the flow of the water....some are whimpy about that...........
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Tlaloc » Feb 4, 2013 9:22 am

Chads93GT wrote:You quoted a amazon book review to make your point about it being racist. Over my head? Hardly.


No, I quoted Marbach and Tourte. The Amazon.com reviews don't mention our Anglo Saxon culture.
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Mike Hopley » Feb 4, 2013 10:11 am

eyecave wrote:we also have an affinity for waterfalls and rigging the rope deliberately in the flow of the water....some are whimpy about that...


Getting stuck or exhausted on rope in a waterfall is life-threatening. There's nothing wimpy about avoiding fatalities.

(One difference between caving and canyoning is that, in general, canyoners don't climb back up the rope.)
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby paul » Feb 4, 2013 5:05 pm

Mike Hopley wrote:
eyecave wrote:we also have an affinity for waterfalls and rigging the rope deliberately in the flow of the water....some are whimpy about that...

Getting stuck or exhausted on rope in a waterfall is life-threatening. There's nothing wimpy about avoiding fatalities.


Indeed.

See Incident 325 on http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html. That's a pich of well under 20 feet in a very popular cave near here. And that was on an electron ladder with a lifeline.
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 4, 2013 6:14 pm

Tlaloc wrote:
Chads93GT wrote:You quoted a amazon book review to make your point about it being racist. Over my head? Hardly.


No, I quoted Marbach and Tourte. The Amazon.com reviews don't mention our Anglo Saxon culture.


No, you quoted Joe R. an amazon book review, direct from the amazon link you posted.

"4.0 out of 5 stars Excellent but dated, also hilarious. July 19, 2011
By Joe R
Format:HardcoverThe technical sections on ropework and self-rescue are excellent and lengthy even if the diagrams often leave much to the imagination. This is easily forgiven, since it allows the book to be more compact than On Rope. The recommendations on vertical technique are also very helpful, though the authors assume that their techniques will be used exactly, leaving those of us with other systems to do a lot of alterations. One imagines ranks of European cavers dressed and geared identically except for the color of their webbing.

My main complaints with the book are the undeniably dated and region-specific recommendations regarding gear, and some highly questionable choices in the translation of commonly-used words and phrases. Also some Eurocentrism and an occasional air of French superiority.

Be prepared for (sometimes intentionally) hilarious interjections by the authors, which spice up the dry material."

I am really not sure how quoting a book review off amazon.com, which you provided the link for, is the same as quoting the author, but whatever floats your boat.
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Tlaloc » Feb 4, 2013 7:01 pm

No, for the second time, the assertion that Americans use inferior vertical techniques because of their inferior "Anglo-saxon" culture is not in the reviews, it's in the book. You would sound more intelligent if you actually read the posts in the thread to which you are responding.
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 4, 2013 7:15 pm

Perhaps you should scroll up and see what it was you actually quoted.
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby eyecave » Feb 4, 2013 9:20 pm

Indeed.

See Incident 325 on http://www.derbyshirecro.org.uk/call_outs.html. That's a pich of well under 20 feet in a very popular cave near here. And that was on an electron ladder with a lifeline.[/quote]

first i would like to admit to being TAGcentric (i think thats right)....rigging a rope in a waterfall should never be taken as anything except very dangerous...the most dangerous part being when you rig in your climbing gear and begin to ascend........never rig in really really cold water.....TAG water temp is usually low to mid fifties...rain, snow melt, and dam breaks can change things...any amount of water can cause hypothermia in a climber and as the volume of water goes up it gets more and more important to be able to handle any on rope emergency you might encounter...and don't try to climb in it if you can't stand upright in it.........proper protective equipment, good judgment, and experience are also absolute musts.....
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 5, 2013 10:17 am

eyecave wrote:first i would like to admit to being TAGcentric (i think thats right)....rigging a rope in a waterfall should never be taken as anything except very dangerous...the most dangerous part being when you rig in your climbing gear and begin to ascend........never rig in really really cold water.....TAG water temp is usually low to mid fifties...rain, snow melt, and dam breaks can change things...any amount of water can cause hypothermia in a climber and as the volume of water goes up it gets more and more important to be able to handle any on rope emergency you might encounter...and don't try to climb in it if you can't stand upright in it.........proper protective equipment, good judgment, and experience are also absolute musts.....

It's good to know that good judgment and experience are musts for climbing rope in a waterfall :roll: . Though maybe those with good judgment and experience wouldn't climb rope in a waterfall. A bit of a catch-22 :doh: .
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby eyecave » Feb 5, 2013 1:34 pm

Extremeophile wrote:
eyecave wrote:first i would like to admit to being TAGcentric (i think thats right)....rigging a rope in a waterfall should never be taken as anything except very dangerous...the most dangerous part being when you rig in your climbing gear and begin to ascend........never rig in really really cold water.....TAG water temp is usually low to mid fifties...rain, snow melt, and dam breaks can change things...any amount of water can cause hypothermia in a climber and as the volume of water goes up it gets more and more important to be able to handle any on rope emergency you might encounter...and don't try to climb in it if you can't stand upright in it.........proper protective equipment, good judgment, and experience are also absolute musts.....

It's good to know that good judgment and experience are musts for climbing rope in a waterfall :roll: . Though maybe those with good judgment and experience wouldn't climb rope in a waterfall. A bit of a catch-22 :doh: .


you forgot to mention proper protective equipment!..... :shhh:
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby Foxy.Ferguson » Aug 4, 2013 9:23 am

There are some drops in TAG country where not rigging in the waterfall simply means not doing the pit. There's one drop in Engle Double that I always lost the light from my carbide light by the time I was off the floor and never regained it until well over a hundred feet later . . . To this day I could not say if there were any side passages into that particular pit: never did that pit after I could finally afford a good electric light.

Extremeophile wrote:
eyecave wrote:first i would like to admit to being TAGcentric (i think thats right)....rigging a rope in a waterfall should never be taken as anything except very dangerous...the most dangerous part being when you rig in your climbing gear and begin to ascend........never rig in really really cold water.....TAG water temp is usually low to mid fifties...rain, snow melt, and dam breaks can change things...any amount of water can cause hypothermia in a climber and as the volume of water goes up it gets more and more important to be able to handle any on rope emergency you might encounter...and don't try to climb in it if you can't stand upright in it.........proper protective equipment, good judgment, and experience are also absolute musts.....

It's good to know that good judgment and experience are musts for climbing rope in a waterfall :roll: . Though maybe those with good judgment and experience wouldn't climb rope in a waterfall. A bit of a catch-22 :doh: .
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Re: Climbing systems and the "hobgoblin of little minds."

Postby eyecave » Aug 6, 2013 5:25 pm

well yeah....but how else can you explore a wet cave......i know...rig it dry as possible....why did you post that thrice?
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