Forget Everything You Know About FROG

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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 28, 2012 1:46 pm

Chads93GT wrote:Colored with condescension? What in the world are you talking about? Why is it any time someone with experience in something tries to help you, you have a response like this?


Probably because I am overly critical and laden with personal insecurities. I'm sorry Chad. I was referring to your
Chads93GT wrote:Most cavers are cavers and cavers only. they dont workout in the gym or anything
comment. I guess you may be right, I don't really know many cavers.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 28, 2012 1:48 pm

I. Fortunately I know over a hundred. Of all of them, zero hit the gym. They go caving for workouts ;)
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Erica » Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm

Chads93GT wrote:I. Fortunately I know over a hundred. Of all of them, zero hit the gym. They go caving for workouts ;)


You are wrong Chad, you recently met 3 cavers at TAG that go to the gym on a regular basis :waving: . Weekdays only of course, the weekends belong to the cave gym :boxing:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 28, 2012 3:38 pm

Ok 4%!!!! Lol.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 28, 2012 3:47 pm

I was at the gym today. 2-3 times a week for me.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby NZcaver » Nov 28, 2012 3:58 pm

Chads93GT wrote:Most cavers are cavers and cavers only. they dont workout in the gym or anything

Hey! I resent resemble that insinuation. :sadbanana:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby wyandottecaver » Nov 28, 2012 6:45 pm

I rather suspect that since I do far more crawling than climbing, and my own direct experiance implies crawling is far more damaging, or at least painful, on my knees than climbing, that the impact of my frogging technique on my long term knee health is negligible in comparison :big grin:

Of course in TAG where a 300' pit is small and a 300' crawl is considered a grueling trip, I can see your concern :tonguecheek:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby tncaver » Nov 28, 2012 7:22 pm

Awe, gee, wyandotte, you exagerate. :big grin:

wyandottecaver wrote:Of course in TAG where a 300' pit is small and a 300' crawl is considered a grueling trip, I can see your concern :tonguecheek:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 28, 2012 9:25 pm

300' crawl would be delightful. My current surey is 1400' non stop crawl over cobble. It sucks. Bad. Really bad. One way b
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Mike Hopley » Nov 29, 2012 11:33 am

Amy is taking short steps. Maybe that's because she's Doing It Wrong, or maybe she isn't physically capable of taking longer steps. This could be because of low flexibility, or body shape. We don't know. Personally I think she would be better off with a supportive chest harness, but she prefers the bungee.

In principle, I think Amy is correct. If you physically cannot take long steps, then you might as well use a higher attachment point.

We should also bear in mind differing levels of fitness. Cavers with weak core muscles might benefit from a higher attachment point -- even if it causes them to take shorter steps. But I would still check their chest harness first.


Chads93GT wrote:Knees to face. You will get more bang for the buck and its much less stressful on your knees.

Generally good advice, but...

Maximal steps are not always good. Since I am flexible, I can bring my knees very high. This isn't necessarily an efficient way to frog, because it puts you in an excessively deep squat position. I usually find it more efficient to take frogging steps that are long but not maximal. I also find it more efficient to vary the step length, especially to match the rhythm of rope bounce.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Tlaloc » Nov 29, 2012 10:27 pm

NZcaver wrote:Hey! I resent resemble that insinuation. :sadbanana:


"I resemble that remark." - Groucho Marx
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby chh » Nov 29, 2012 11:04 pm

Higher attachment point doesn't matter in Amy's case. If amy were to extend her croll with a tether or something instead of directly on her d-ring with her "caving" harness, she'd still fall backward. Obviously, as has already been said it's mostly to do with her body shape and choice in harness, both sit and chest.

Also, efficiency is always a compromise between the distance you push your ascenders and your physical stamina. This may even change for an individual during the course of a long caving trip. Amy's strokes, regardless of the systems in her video, looked painfully short to me. And I would also seriously consider at least a webbing chest harness if I were her. I use one myself if I know I'm going to be frogging a really long pitch. Otherwise, I mostly use a bungee. However, if I found myself on a caving trip with Amy presented with the two options in the video, I'd rather she chose the system that was going to wear her out the least.

Oh, and I also raise my knees in front of my chest when frogging. I can do this and still press down and not out with my legs, and it increases my stroke length. This only increases my "efficiency" because I am physically capable of making this happen as there isn't a whole lot of me to get in the way.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby BrianFrank » Nov 30, 2012 10:50 am

Amy, You are awesome! Thank you for posting this video so we have something to analyze, take apart and slam each other on :popcorn:
Putting yourselves out there in a video like that....you guys are braver than I am :bow:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Wormster » Dec 1, 2012 9:00 am

ERRR people, people, we're FORGETTING one thing - irrespective of body shape a CHEST harness should be used! - do I have to mention suspension trauma???

When using a CHEST harness, it SHOULD be tightened up so that you CAN'T stand up properly, that way you are held in a vertical plane close to the rope.

Amy's foot loop and shock chord are far too long.

My rig is set up so that BOTH my long cows tail AND hand ascender shock chord at full extension create less than a 90 degree angle at the elbow.

That way I'm NOT over reaching and exhausting myself on ascent. Most folk tend to push their feet AWAY from their bodies which is inefficient, rather than raising their feet to their buttocks and pushing DOWN, which is more efficient, also the addition of a foot ascender makes frogging more efficient.

Just remember to disengage the damm thing BEFORE passing any obstruction in the rope (I found out the hard way, suspended upside down with my foot cranked hard against my backside, in Rhino Rift one day - man that took a bit of swearing and sweating to sort out!!)

Maybe its the way we do things over here in the U.K. with our rigging lots of re-belays and deviations, rather than the rigging system that is commonly used in the U.S.A.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby paul » Dec 3, 2012 8:00 am

Wormster wrote:ERRR people, people, we're FORGETTING one thing - irrespective of body shape a CHEST harness should be used! - do I have to mention suspension trauma???

When using a CHEST harness, it SHOULD be tightened up so that you CAN'T stand up properly, that way you are held in a vertical plane close to the rope.


Suspension Trauma occurs when someone is hanging immobie in a harness for a period of time which varies from individual to individual. Having a chest harness of any sort will make no difference at all.
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