Forget Everything You Know About FROG

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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 27, 2012 1:13 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:I applaud them for sharing their ideas. Sharing ideas is how we all learn. Who knows, this video may spark a new idea that will benefit everyone. But, when presenting new ideas, one must have thick skin, prepare for criticism and possibly accept failure.


Right, but since the goal appears to be selling Pangaea harnesses, they're just deleting all critique from the YouTube comments. Which is certainly their prerogative, but let's not pretend they're just "testing a theory" here, as in the phrasing Jansen pointed out!

Groundquest, wait, you're using a handled ascender IN PLACE OF a croll? I'm confused here.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 27, 2012 1:24 pm

Jeff Bartlett wrote:Groundquest, wait, you're using a handled ascender IN PLACE OF a croll? I'm confused here.


I am! I am! And its working fine! :banana_yay:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby snoboy » Nov 27, 2012 1:41 pm

I think there are two issues here - stroke length and efficiency, related but not necessarily intertwined.

I understand the argument that a slightly higher attachment or a handled ascender in place of CROLL will not shorten your stroke. I agree in my experience with G-MSA - the legs are the limit there - up to a point anyways.

Efficiency does suffer IMO when you have to lift your arms higher - first, it is less ergonomic, second I think it forces people to pull up rather than in with their arms, and third I wonder if it puts more weight up higher - the opposite of what you want if you are top heavy...

These observations are based on extensive frogging in both a a nice low attachment MTDE harness, and a higher attachment Petzl Navajo.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 27, 2012 1:55 pm

:exactly:
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 27, 2012 2:14 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Jeff Bartlett wrote:Groundquest, wait, you're using a handled ascender IN PLACE OF a croll? I'm confused here.


I am! I am! And its working fine! :banana_yay:


Always kinda wondered if that would work -- I saw a friend forget his Croll at the car once and START to attempt it before someone else offered up a spare Croll.

That said, I can't imagine passing a rebelay or knot with something that large between my half-round and the obstacle. Would be interesting to try. In the same vein, have you ever tried using a Croll? I'm inclined to think you'd like it.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 27, 2012 3:09 pm

Jeff Bartlett wrote:That said, I can't imagine passing a rebelay or knot with something that large between my half-round and the obstacle. Would be interesting to try. In the same vein, have you ever tried using a Croll? I'm inclined to think you'd like it.


I've never encountered a rebelay in cave. I don't get to do a lot of vertical caving. I've passed knots and practiced many, many changeovers in the tree without any issue. I have tried using a Croll. I did very much like the reduced bulk. I actually bought one but it took so long for the store I ordered from to get it, that I got frustrated (and broke) and got a refund. I had successfully climbed my first few in cave pits with a frog system while waiting on the Croll to arrive, so I figured I could afford to wait until I had more $$ available.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 27, 2012 3:15 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:I actually bought one but it took so long for the store I ordered from to get it, that I got frustrated (and broke) and got a refund. I had successfully climbed my first few in cave pits with a frog system while waiting on the Croll to arrive, so I figured I could afford to wait until I had more $$ available.


You ought to keep your eyes open this winter -- with the updated Croll set to come out Jan 1-ish, I bet some of the old models will be discounted deeply. If not, reputable retailers like Inner Mountain Outfitters (with coupon) & Karst Sports have them at 20% off right now.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 27, 2012 3:58 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Amazingracer wrote:And despite teaching vertical caving on frog to over 150 people over the last five years and personally climbing 5.5 miles of rope (nearly all on frog), here is some proof that I am not full of poppycock: Vertical by Al Warild page 118


Despite teaching vertical caving to nobody over the last five years and personally climbing three pits and a tree on frog, I remain unfazed by your superiority. I don't think I saw what you wanted me to on page 118 of Vertical. I did notice this:
Image
This handsome explorer is demonstrating a proper squatting frog stroke. Notice that the legs and not the arms are what limit the stroke. If the caver were using a longer lower ascender, the arms would be a little higher, but the stroke would be the same:
Image

This picture is not even close to a full frog stroke. Lift your knees to your face. Not ankles to your ass. Standing up with your knee under your ass is highly destructive to your knees In the same way doing squats and gettin your knees past your feet is (improper form).
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 27, 2012 4:08 pm

Chads93GT wrote:This picture is not even close to a full frog stroke. Lift your knees to your face. Not ankles to your ass. Standing up with your knee under your ass is highly destructive to your knees In the same way doing squats and gettin your knees past your feet is (improper form).


According to Al, it's pretty close to a full stroke. There isn't much slack left in that tether. At any rate, that isn't the point. Are you suggesting that one should fully extend their arms with every stroke?
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 27, 2012 4:10 pm

I do. I'm 6'3". Do what works best for you. But do not put your anew under your butt to stand. Knees to face. You will get more bang for the buck and its much less stressful on your knees.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby wyandottecaver » Nov 27, 2012 7:02 pm

It is mostly relative... for me, a shortish somewhat potbellied caver, by lifting knees to face instead of ankles to butt I actually push myself away from the rope somewhat and am too "scrunched up". I find positioning my feet and ankles directly under or even slightly behind me is at least far more stable and comfortable, it may or may not be more efficient.

With respect to Amy's video, comfort has an efficiency all it's own. I don't disagree that it is not the most efficient. But if she is comfortable and can operate in it safely, that's probably more important than pure efficiency. Purporting to prove the way we have been regarding the frog is a myth...well, to each their own.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 27, 2012 8:55 pm

Just throwing in the knee destruction disclaimer, regardless of how it keeps you in at the rope. Most cavers are cavers and cavers only. they dont workout in the gym or anything, so most wouldnt know about knee/foot angle and how it destroys the knee. I am simply passing on the info so you dont end up with destroyed knees. Hard to cave without knees ;) Take it for what its worth or do your own research> its not to be taken lightly ;)
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 27, 2012 11:54 pm

If I were to extend my arm fully, (with my current footloop length as shown in fig. 1) the result would be the preposterous position shown in fig. 2. While this would give me a 37" stroke, it would certainly be unspeakably inefficient to have to overcome such a contortion on every cycle. If I were to lengthen my footloop so that I could extend my arm fully and allow my feet to end up in a more reasonable location, (fig. 3) The upper ascender would be absurdly high (fig. 4) and the low croll attachment unneccessary.
Image

Chads93GT wrote:Just throwing in the knee destruction disclaimer, regardless of how it keeps you in at the rope. Most cavers are cavers and cavers only. they dont workout in the gym or anything, so most wouldnt know about knee/foot angle and how it destroys the knee. I am simply passing on the info so you dont end up with destroyed knees. Hard to cave without knees ;) Take it for what its worth or do your own research> its not to be taken lightly ;)


Your concern for our joint health is indeed admirable Chad, even if it is colored with remarkable condescension. I personally do more damage to my knees at work than I could do in a long lifetime of vertical caving, regardless of my technique.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 28, 2012 8:31 am

Your illustrations are great.

Also, the shorter your foot loop, the better. If you can shorten your footloop an inch and still maintain efficiency, you should shorten it. This makes on rope transitions easier and there is less stuff to carry around.
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Re: Forget Everything You Know About FROG

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 28, 2012 10:21 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:If I were to extend my arm fully, (with my current footloop length as shown in fig. 1) the result would be the preposterous position shown in fig. 2. While this would give me a 37" stroke, it would certainly be unspeakably inefficient to have to overcome such a contortion on every cycle. If I were to lengthen my footloop so that I could extend my arm fully and allow my feet to end up in a more reasonable location, (fig. 3) The upper ascender would be absurdly high (fig. 4) and the low croll attachment unneccessary.
Image

Chads93GT wrote:Just throwing in the knee destruction disclaimer, regardless of how it keeps you in at the rope. Most cavers are cavers and cavers only. they dont workout in the gym or anything, so most wouldnt know about knee/foot angle and how it destroys the knee. I am simply passing on the info so you dont end up with destroyed knees. Hard to cave without knees ;) Take it for what its worth or do your own research> its not to be taken lightly ;)


Your concern for our joint health is indeed admirable Chad, even if it is colored with remarkable condescension. I personally do more damage to my knees at work than I could do in a long lifetime of vertical caving, regardless of my technique.


Colored with condescension? What in the world are you talking about? Why is it any time someone with experience in something tries to help you, you have a response like this?
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