Cavechat.org

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?

Both?

I've carried a Basic as a third ascender (well, fourth if you count the Pantin) ever since QAS mania swept Cavechat a few years ago. In all that time I haven't used it even once.

Mike

I'd like a clarification. Several posters in this thread seem to be implying that those with 2 ascenders don't have a QAS. Huh?? QAS stands for "Quick Attachment Safety" and is a great tool to have when you're rigging in at a pitch head (and countless other situations). However, even in a two-ascender frog system, the upper ascender -- typically attached to the long cowstail -- is a QAS in form and function.

When I'm carrying a two-ascender rig, that's how I clip in (when I can't use a cowstail): I put my upper ascender on the rope. How is that not a QAS? Am I missing something here?

Yeah I dont get the "2 ascender frog doesnt have a QAS" posts above. As if the 6mm cordage foot loop that I have prevents me from using it as a qas??

Jeff Bartlett wrote:I'd like a clarification. Several posters in this thread seem to be implying that those with 2 ascenders don't have a QAS. Huh?? QAS stands for "Quick Attachment Safety" and is a great tool to have when you're rigging in at a pitch head (and countless other situations). However, even in a two-ascender frog system, the upper ascender -- typically attached to the long cowstail -- is a QAS in form and function.

When I'm carrying a two-ascender rig, that's how I clip in (when I can't use a cowstail): I put my upper ascender on the rope. How is that not a QAS? Am I missing something here?

I think with virtually every system you have an upper ascender such as a Basic or handled ascender on a tether that can be clipped to the rope near edges, used on traverses, clipped to the rope above the descender for a safety check when crossing rebelays, etc., but is also an integral part of the ascending system.

My laypersons definition of a QAS is that it is yet another ascender on a tether that can be used for all of the above described functions except that it is not an integral part of the ascending system. This is why many of us elitists dismiss the need for the QAS and feel superior when not carrying it. It seems the only argument for needing a separate QAS would be for crossing difficult lips or possibly crossing knots while maintaining a minimum of 2 points of contact, and as others have pointed out, there are alternative strategies for dealing with these situations other than the use of a QAS. I think it's obvious that vertical caving with a QAS is equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels .

I would like to point out that even though I was painted in this thread as a "purveyor of QAS dogma," by the esteemed (pathological liar) Jeff Bartlett, I actually do not fit this label very well. I tell people that I usually carry one, but I prefer to think of it as a "third ascender" because either upper ascender can be used as QAS as superDerek and others have pointed out. I do a lot of training new folks on SRT, and the only time I suggest that they should have three ascenders is if they have a long rack and have trouble with changeovers. I do not suggest (dogmatically or otherwise) that anyone else should have one. The NCRC no longer uses the term QAS either these days.

I'll admit that (much like Obama) my thinking on this issue has evolved. I was originally trained that you had to have three, and the third was the non-integral QAS that superDerek defined. Like others, I realized that the separate QAS has limited use and now only carry it if I have the long rack or the trip is otherwise not very weight/bulk critical. Hell, I can only really go on trips that aren't that weight/bulk critical anyway, although I have lost 11 pounds since spring when I looked on facebook and said "who is that fatty?" and then realized it was me!

I suppose an interesting question is where did all of this QAS stuff come from anyway? I know some of you out there must know the answer to this. I'm sure there were reasons for it, and it would be interesting to review those reasons. The French didn't start it, so it must have been us. Nowadays, we see most Americans turning away from the idea.

If I have purveyed anything in the past, please remember that ideas and attitudes change over time and forgive me, I've still got my training wheels on. I have learned a lot from the minimal gear crowd, and am well on my way to being fully converted. Just a few more audits on the E-meter and I'll be there.

I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.

Bravo! That's some great dogma to live by, Anonymous Coward.

Stridergdm wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?

Both?

Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?

PeterFJohnson wrote:

Stridergdm wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?

Both?

Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?

By accidentally thumbing the cam while froggig on the upper I have had it slip. Yes. Never a weighted one.

NZcaver wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.

Bravo! That's some great dogma to live by, Anonymous Coward.

Umm, note "learning and refining" isn't necessarily justification for becoming a gear horder.

PeterFJohnson wrote:

Stridergdm wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?

Both?

Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?

Your ropes are too clean and the teeth on your ascenders too new.

(though hasn't happened to me, I have heard of others who have slid down ropes on their weighted ascenders, hence having two is helpful to keep them from descending too quickly.)

PeterFJohnson wrote:

Stridergdm wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?

Both?

Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?

Yup, very worn cam teeth on wet muddy project rope.
I replaced it after that trip.

I just read thru this thread. It does make a good read.

I saw a couple of people mention that a Frog upper ascender makes a good QAS "if the pitch is rigged right". I can't think of what specifics apply here. What is the critical difference?

Thanks

Dwight

I said a cow's tail can be a QAS if the pitch is rigged for such. A frog upper ascender can be QAS, but the way many people stow it and encumber it with a foot loop, makes the "Q" part not so quick.

I haven't used a third ascender with frog at all before, although I have a Petzl Basic I've thought about using for this. What about using a separate cowstail for the ascender vs long cowstail?

How do most people stow their hand ascender in a frog system? I've seen slinging the footloop over the shoulder and clipping it in the ascender (I saw this in Alpine Caving Techniques), and making a bundle of the footloop and clipping it to a gearloop. I usually sling it over my shoulder, and I'd like to think this is quicker to undo, are there any disadvantages to it? Sometimes I have also unclipped the long cowstail from the ascender while slung over my shoulder, although I have to be careful to remember to clip it back before using the ascender.