Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Discuss vertical caving, equipment, & techniques. Also visit the NSS Vertical Section.

Moderator: Tim White

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Stridergdm » Jul 19, 2012 5:09 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!! :clap:

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic? :shrug:


Both? :-)
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby OpenTrackRacer » Jul 20, 2012 12:48 am

I've carried a Basic as a third ascender (well, fourth if you count the Pantin) ever since QAS mania swept Cavechat a few years ago. In all that time I haven't used it even once.

Mike
Underground Explorers
California Abandoned Mine Exploration
http://www.undergroundexplorers.com
User avatar
OpenTrackRacer
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Jul 1, 2008 1:05 am
Location: San Diego, CA
Name: Mike Schriber
NSS #: 65042
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Southern California
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 20, 2012 10:33 am

I'd like a clarification. Several posters in this thread seem to be implying that those with 2 ascenders don't have a QAS. Huh?? QAS stands for "Quick Attachment Safety" and is a great tool to have when you're rigging in at a pitch head (and countless other situations). However, even in a two-ascender frog system, the upper ascender -- typically attached to the long cowstail -- is a QAS in form and function.

When I'm carrying a two-ascender rig, that's how I clip in (when I can't use a cowstail): I put my upper ascender on the rope. How is that not a QAS? Am I missing something here?
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Chads93GT » Jul 20, 2012 10:41 am

Yeah I dont get the "2 ascender frog doesnt have a QAS" posts above. As if the 6mm cordage foot loop that I have prevents me from using it as a qas??
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Extremeophile » Jul 20, 2012 10:53 am

Jeff Bartlett wrote:I'd like a clarification. Several posters in this thread seem to be implying that those with 2 ascenders don't have a QAS. Huh?? QAS stands for "Quick Attachment Safety" and is a great tool to have when you're rigging in at a pitch head (and countless other situations). However, even in a two-ascender frog system, the upper ascender -- typically attached to the long cowstail -- is a QAS in form and function.

When I'm carrying a two-ascender rig, that's how I clip in (when I can't use a cowstail): I put my upper ascender on the rope. How is that not a QAS? Am I missing something here?

I think with virtually every system you have an upper ascender such as a Basic or handled ascender on a tether that can be clipped to the rope near edges, used on traverses, clipped to the rope above the descender for a safety check when crossing rebelays, etc., but is also an integral part of the ascending system.

My laypersons definition of a QAS is that it is yet another ascender on a tether that can be used for all of the above described functions except that it is not an integral part of the ascending system. This is why many of us elitists dismiss the need for the QAS and feel superior when not carrying it. It seems the only argument for needing a separate QAS would be for crossing difficult lips or possibly crossing knots while maintaining a minimum of 2 points of contact, and as others have pointed out, there are alternative strategies for dealing with these situations other than the use of a QAS. I think it's obvious that vertical caving with a QAS is equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels :laughing: .
User avatar
Extremeophile
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Dec 7, 2009 7:37 pm
Location: Littleton, CO
Name: Derek Bristol
NSS #: 34941
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Colorado Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jul 20, 2012 12:10 pm

I would like to point out that even though I was painted in this thread as a "purveyor of QAS dogma," by the esteemed (pathological liar) Jeff Bartlett, I actually do not fit this label very well. I tell people that I usually carry one, but I prefer to think of it as a "third ascender" because either upper ascender can be used as QAS as superDerek and others have pointed out. I do a lot of training new folks on SRT, and the only time I suggest that they should have three ascenders is if they have a long rack and have trouble with changeovers. I do not suggest (dogmatically or otherwise) that anyone else should have one. The NCRC no longer uses the term QAS either these days.

I'll admit that (much like Obama) my thinking on this issue has evolved. I was originally trained that you had to have three, and the third was the non-integral QAS that superDerek defined. Like others, I realized that the separate QAS has limited use and now only carry it if I have the long rack or the trip is otherwise not very weight/bulk critical. Hell, I can only really go on trips that aren't that weight/bulk critical anyway, although I have lost 11 pounds since spring when I looked on facebook and said "who is that fatty?" and then realized it was me! :yikes:

I suppose an interesting question is where did all of this QAS stuff come from anyway? I know some of you out there must know the answer to this. I'm sure there were reasons for it, and it would be interesting to review those reasons. The French didn't start it, so it must have been us. Nowadays, we see most Americans turning away from the idea.

If I have purveyed anything in the past, please remember that ideas and attitudes change over time and forgive me, I've still got my training wheels on. I have learned a lot from the minimal gear crowd, and am well on my way to being fully converted. Just a few more audits on the E-meter and I'll be there.

I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 892
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby NZcaver » Jul 20, 2012 4:40 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.

Bravo! :clap: That's some great dogma to live by, Anonymous Coward. :laughing:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6316
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CCG
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby PeterFJohnson » Jul 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Stridergdm wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!! :clap:

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic? :shrug:


Both? :-)


Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?
User avatar
PeterFJohnson
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Nov 12, 2010 6:29 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Colorado Grotto + GVKS
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Chads93GT » Jul 20, 2012 8:22 pm

PeterFJohnson wrote:
Stridergdm wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!! :clap:

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic? :shrug:


Both? :-)


Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?


By accidentally thumbing the cam while froggig on the upper I have had it slip. Yes. Never a weighted one.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Stridergdm » Jul 20, 2012 8:37 pm

NZcaver wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote:I hope that I never stop learning and refining ideas, gear, and techniques when it comes to SRT.

Bravo! :clap: That's some great dogma to live by, Anonymous Coward. :laughing:


Umm, note "learning and refining" isn't necessarily justification for becoming a gear horder. :-)
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Stridergdm » Jul 20, 2012 8:38 pm

PeterFJohnson wrote:
Stridergdm wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!! :clap:

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic? :shrug:


Both? :-)


Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?


Your ropes are too clean and the teeth on your ascenders too new. :-)

(though hasn't happened to me, I have heard of others who have slid down ropes on their weighted ascenders, hence having two is helpful to keep them from descending too quickly.)
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Carl Amundson » Jul 20, 2012 8:43 pm

PeterFJohnson wrote:
Stridergdm wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote::clap: Ha! I love it!!! :clap:

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic? :shrug:


Both? :-)


Too far down the rabbit hole to know anymore Andy.

A question for the crowd. I too don't go down to one ascender mostly because I have had them slip before. But I have never had one slip after it was weighted. Has anyone experienced this?

Yup, very worn cam teeth on wet muddy project rope.
I replaced it after that trip.
User avatar
Carl Amundson
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 681
Joined: Nov 8, 2006 11:27 am
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Name: Carl Amundson
NSS #: 50213
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Front Royal and Tri-State Grottos
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Dwight Livingston » Jul 21, 2012 8:48 am

I just read thru this thread. It does make a good read.

I saw a couple of people mention that a Frog upper ascender makes a good QAS "if the pitch is rigged right". I can't think of what specifics apply here. What is the critical difference?

Thanks

Dwight
***************
Dwight Livingston
User avatar
Dwight Livingston
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 7:17 am
NSS #: 27411
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Baltimore Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby Scott McCrea » Jul 21, 2012 4:45 pm

I said a cow's tail can be a QAS if the pitch is rigged for such. A frog upper ascender can be QAS, but the way many people stow it and encumber it with a foot loop, makes the "Q" part not so quick.
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

Re: Froggers: have you ever USED your third ascender?

Postby telestoat » Jul 21, 2012 8:37 pm

I haven't used a third ascender with frog at all before, although I have a Petzl Basic I've thought about using for this. What about using a separate cowstail for the ascender vs long cowstail?

How do most people stow their hand ascender in a frog system? I've seen slinging the footloop over the shoulder and clipping it in the ascender (I saw this in Alpine Caving Techniques), and making a bundle of the footloop and clipping it to a gearloop. I usually sling it over my shoulder, and I'd like to think this is quicker to undo, are there any disadvantages to it? Sometimes I have also unclipped the long cowstail from the ascender while slung over my shoulder, although I have to be careful to remember to clip it back before using the ascender.
Last edited by telestoat on Jul 21, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
telestoat
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Jul 8, 2011 8:30 pm
NSS #: 62709
Primary Grotto Affiliation: San Francisco Bay Chapter
  

PreviousNext

Return to On Rope!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron