Cavechat.org

Jeff Bartlett wrote:John Harman (Pantin apologist)

That made me laugh. I may append that to my signature.

This turned into a very interesting discussion. Glad I took the time to read it.

jharman2 wrote:

Jeff Bartlett wrote:John Harman (Pantin apologist)That made me laugh. I may append that to my signature.

Love it! One of these days I'll pick up the old Pantin and give it another go -- it's been several years and many miles of rope since I tried it out.

Much like Jeff, Kyle G. (amazingracer) and I have been inspired by this thread to re-evaluate our gear and techniques. In fact, before our survey trip yesterday we became so disgusted with our third ascenders that we chucked them away into the Utah tundra before entering the cave.

Here are some photos to prove it:






(photos taken by Bonny Armstrong, still wearing her third ascender)

I am happy to report that our frog systems worked just fine with only two ascenders. We did not have to do any changeovers (although we could have). The funniest part was watching Kyle reach for his right-handed QAS at the top of a rappel. It was not there, as it was already being dismembered and decomposed by Utah tundra monsters up on the surface. He somehow was able to learn how to use his left-handed foot ascender as a QAS (have no idea how he pulled it off) and the trip continued without incident.

The best part is that all day we somehow felt superior to cavers that use three ascenders. Our SRT technique was also about 147% better.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:

This is the single greatest thing that has ever been posted on Cavechat.

It was really tough, I had to walk funny to compensate for the missing weight from my side gear loop.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:

I used to use a QAS quite a bit, but project caving cured me of that.
The final straw was adding a small biner to attach my footloops to my handled ascender (thanks John)
This allows me to unclip the footloops and use just the ascender & Croll to go up steep muddy slopes (I used to jug up them).

That said, a QAS is nice to have handy for pick-offs, but is not necessary.

and for full disclosure; I use a Pantin for project caving to drag wet muddy rope thru my Croll.
I also carry a couple of short prusik loops, a small cmi pulley and a micro-trazion

Anonymous_Coward wrote:

That's a waste of good ascenders. You could have used them to determine the depth of pits by counting to the seconds it takes to hit bottom.

Andy, it also looks like you ditched that 6-bar behemoth you were so fond of in favor of a micro-rack. I think I see a Simple in your future.

Extremeophile wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote:

That's a waste of good ascenders. You could have used them to determine the depth of pits by counting to the seconds it takes to hit bottom.

Andy, it also looks like you ditched that 6-bar behemoth you were so fond of in favor of a micro-rack. I think I see a Simple in your future.

It also looks like your maillon is upside-down. I think I read something in another thread about the upside-down maillon technique.

Not so fast there, superDerek. I still got lots of love for the 6-bar behemoth. Them frenchy things ain't never worked so good for me. Plus, I'm not sure if you knew this, but those spools are made of ALUMINUM.

As you know, I've been a micro-rack sometimes-user since 2003. I really like em for canyoneering, and any time I gots to backpack in somewheres. (Lech excluded due to wild variation in rope types, sizes, conditions, and grittiness.) Here you see evidence of the other situation where I like to use it, the "under-the-cave-suit" SRT rig. That 6-bar makes it hard to walk in this configuration.

A Simple? Hmmm, I'd have to get even more open minded yet to give that a try again. But who knows, we'll see where this thread ends up. It's already got folks broadening their underground horizons.

P.S. The maillon? Upside-down and open. That's how I'm caving these days. I find it improves my technique.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Here you see evidence of the other situation where I like to use it, the "under-the-cave-suit" SRT rig. That 6-bar makes it hard to walk in this configuration.

Yes, but you deprive all those around you of the opportunity to make "Is that 14-inch SMC in your pants or are you just happy to see me?" jokes. For shame.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:P.S. The maillon? Upside-down and open. That's how I'm caving these days. I find it improves my technique.

Ah, yes, the "don't fall" technique! Goes really well with the "onsight rope". When you really need to make it up that next route clean, use the "onsight rope". 20 years old, a full 3mm thicker than it started out as, and with some burrs that look like fly fishing lures periodically along it's length. You know, for that added confidence.....um, incentive.

Jeff Bartlett wrote:

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Here you see evidence of the other situation where I like to use it, the "under-the-cave-suit" SRT rig. That 6-bar makes it hard to walk in this configuration.

Yes, but you deprive all those around you of the opportunity to make "Is that 14-inch SMC in your pants or are you just happy to see me?" jokes. For shame.

Yeah, saying you Micro Rack in your pants just does not sound the same.

Anonymous_Coward wrote: Ahhh, but Pete you are missing the point. As so often happens on cavechat, crucial details have been overlooked. I said myself that all of these situations CAN be negotiated safely without the third ascender. The point is, sometimes an extra piece of gear is NICE to have. It doesn't mean that you have to have it. (I'm not picking on you specifically, Pete. Just answering an overall tone that I am hearing in many of the responses here.)

Why you always gotta be picking on me Andy?! I certainly can't speak for the rest of my fellow degenerate cavechat citizens, but I believe my sin wasn't "missing the point" but that I don't agree with you regarding the convenience of carrying a QAS. If I came off particularly militant or was unclear in my post I apologize. I realize it isn't a question of safety/necessity but rather one of convenience and personal preference. As I said, I don't believe my way is for everyone and I honestly do value the eternal cavechat debate, messy edges and all.

==

That being said, I too have been inspired to change my vertical system which was based only upon that warm, superior feeling it generated towards my fellow cavers. I now repent. From here on I aim to maximize vertical convenience and to be ready for all hypothetical situations. It is silly to think that I every doubted carrying extra gear for such meaningless reasons as weight, volume, or cost. As you can see attached to my full body harness or on my person I now have (but am not limited to) the following items: 5 pulleys, 3 descenders, 600' of webbing, numerous rigging plates, some hangers, Utah Tundra Monster Mace©, caving flip-flops, a healthy rack of carabiners(no I am not compensating for anything...), and every manual for every piece of gear I have ever purchased, ever.



You will also noticed that I am carrying at least 9 devices that can be used as ascenders(Find them in the image! Fun for the whole family!). I am not entirely sure how many because to be frank I have lost count. I realize I don't need so many, but I find it so tiresome to actually have to remove them from the rope. So instead I plan to simply leave one at the top of every drop. Additionally, with two descenders, I can simply changeover from descender to descender while crossing rebelays! No need for an extra step!

Some people - mostly egotistical online forum dwellers - believe this is excessive. But it is NICE to know I probably will never have to tie a knot or otherwise be inconvenienced while caving . Besides, I know at least one good caver - such as Andy(PoQD) or John(PA) - that has used every single one of these devices in the past. So therefore there can't possibly a reason not to carry them.

[Note: the "==" marks where I went from sincere to sarcastic. If this offends you, please remember, Andy Started It!]

Ha! I love it!!!

Now this kind of stuff is why I still visit cavechat.

Only one question, Pete. Which side of the = = was sincere and which side was sarcastic?