Decending on a budget

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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 1, 2012 11:59 am

Also don't cut the rope till AFTER you've used it several times. That 600' rope is going to shrink 5 to 10%. You will lose upwards of 50' of rope due to this after it gets wet several times.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby BrianC » Mar 1, 2012 12:21 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
BrianC wrote: I have used 8's on caving rope in a controlled outside setting, and am lucky to still be here.


Oh dear. Myself and planty of others on this forum have used 8's on caving rope without the slightest issue, and will continue to. Just not 600 footers.

I used it with new pmi pit rope at 100' drop. If you start going the least fast, it is almost impossible to stop. With older broke in rope, it would probably be somewhat easier though. I have climbed since the 70's and am very use to 8's for rappelling, and would never consider using one again on pit rope, or in caves.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby GroundquestMSA » Mar 1, 2012 12:28 pm

I used it with new PMI pit rope at 80' drop. A few weeks ago. No problems.

Then again I am likely much lighter than you. Or most people.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Mar 1, 2012 1:02 pm

Personally, I value my life more than a few hundred bucks or even a few thousand. I would also recommend you purchase a helmet with a chinstrap. If the hard hat you are using just happens to fall off while you are climbing not only are you w/o a helmet you are w/o your light!
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Cody JW » Mar 1, 2012 1:28 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:I used it with new PMI pit rope at 80' drop. A few weeks ago. No problems.

Then again I am likely much lighter than you. Or most people.
I am 220 Lbs. without gear and love the 8 for short (under 100ft. ) drops. I use the steel. For some reason it seems to have the perfect amount of friction, even for a fat boy like me. I also prefer it for training new people above ground because they do not have to worry about friction adjustments on initial rappels.They can get familiar with being on rope first before introducing them to friction adjustments. I have been vertical caving since the 80s and have used the 8 extensively here in the short Indiana Pits and never had the first problem. Love the fact that it is compact. For longer drops , I use a standard rack. But for most of the this Indiana stuff it is the compact system of the frog and figure 8. Also love the 8 for TAG multi drops like Thunder Hole where you have several shorter drops. Much easier to drag through a cave like that than a rack. Of course for pull downs you need a rack. Let the debate begin. After 30 years of using the 8 and I am still very much here and alive ,my mind will not change.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Mar 1, 2012 1:40 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:
Elliott-Hellmann wrote:to the guy who said my ppicture was inapropriate for this forum

:laughing: :rofl: Joke, dude. It was a joke. It's a silly picture and deserves to have some fun poked at it.

BTW, how are your changeovers? The ability to change from descending to ascending and vice-versa is your best option for saving yourself should you get in trouble. Practice with a weighted (~40lbs) rope in the tree.



My bad on misinterpreting :laughing: .


The changeovers are definaltly something that I'm trying to work on in my free time. The way I've been doing it is hooking the belay device to a carabiner on my D ring. I have a petzl croll attached to my D ring, A petzl Pantin foot ascender (Left) and a Petzl hand ascender with a single leg strap (right). By keeping the Belay device above the Croll I can attach the foot acender and hand ascender, step into the strap. Take the tension off the the belay device, remove it and then attach the croll. With both the foot and hand acender attached, I feel pretty secure on the rope while preforming the switch from the belay to the croll.

I read that the two guys who died in this cave last year either didn't know how to preform a change over or were not equiped to do so. That's why they got stuck in the waterfall and caught hypothermia.
Last edited by Elliott-Hellmann on Mar 1, 2012 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Mar 1, 2012 1:49 pm

sandcast69 wrote:I'm glad to see your getting a rack. I am curious what style ascension system are you planning on using to get back up?



I have a Petzl Croll, A Petzl Pantin Foot ascender (left), and a petzl ahnd ascender with a right single leg stap. I pretty much have a "rope walker" setup.


Image


Here i am comming up "nuisance". I loosened the croll for comfort. For long ascents tightening it up seems to keep it lower and make it much more efficent.


Image

This is the beginning of the ascent out of "warmup".
Last edited by Elliott-Hellmann on Mar 1, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Mar 1, 2012 1:56 pm

Chads93GT wrote:Also don't cut the rope till AFTER you've used it several times. That 600' rope is going to shrink 5 to 10%. You will lose upwards of 50' of rope due to this after it gets wet several times.



Wow, i didn't know this. I'm glad I do now because that would be a very expensive mistake to cut the rope and have it shink to short.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Elliott-Hellmann » Mar 1, 2012 1:59 pm

rowland7840 wrote:Personally, I value my life more than a few hundred bucks or even a few thousand. I would also recommend you purchase a helmet with a chinstrap. If the hard hat you are using just happens to fall off while you are climbing not only are you w/o a helmet you are w/o your light!



I agree. Not to talk back but I do keep at least two back up lights in my backpack in case that were to happen. It would still suck losing a helmet. Now that caving is becomming a serious hobby I'm ready to get right gear for it.
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Mar 1, 2012 2:13 pm

Elliott-Hellmann wrote: Now that caving is becomming a serious hobby I'm ready to get right gear for it.


Glad to read this because after reading your first post I was scared for you. Caving is a lifestyle for many of us and we all just want you to be safe so you can continue to enjoy it. :grin:
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby BrianFrank » Mar 1, 2012 4:37 pm

Elliott-Hellmann wrote:I read that the two guys who died in this cave last year either didn't know how to preform a change over or were not equiped to do so. That's why they got stuck in the waterfall and caught hypothermia.

If their deaths save lives in the future, than something good is coming out of that tragedy. You knowing their story and coming here to this forum to ask questions may be the first good out of that....
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby UnderGroundEarth » Mar 1, 2012 4:59 pm

You can read the full story about the Florida guys in last months issue of Get Out Chattanooga Magazine.

http://media.timesfreepress.com/epaper/ ... index.html

Story starts on page 50...

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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby Stridergdm » Mar 1, 2012 6:07 pm

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, thank you so much for taking the time to write and ask questions BEFORE it was too late.

Thirdly, thank you so much for actually LISTENING.

Seriously, I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people here and forums like this that will ask for advice and then promptly ignore it.

I've been to Ellison's several times. I've even descended down about 100' from the attic before climbing back out (lack of time to catch my train in the evening has prevented me from dropping the entire thing and then ascending). I've got to say, it's damn scary. That much rope really is different in so many ways.

Hopefully you'll have a long, fun career caving.

And if I can make a plug, since it's in your area, check out Week Long Cave Rescue Class.

Great training and you'll learn a lot. And you never know when you might be able to help out.
Cavers rescue cavers!
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby mabercrombie » Mar 1, 2012 8:06 pm

Hey Elliot
The Chattanooga Grotto meets at the Chattanooga Nature Center on the second Monday of each month at 7:00. We would love to see you there!
Im Marty Abercrombie
and I approve this message
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Re: Decending on a budget

Postby dutchcontractor » Mar 1, 2012 8:32 pm

Last November I had my first Fantastic Bounce and let me tell you that even with years of vertical experience its no walk in the park.

My team prepared for a better part of a year and while it was scary, but because of the training, we never felt like we didn't know what we were doing or were out of control.

It was an amazing and fun experience because we were trained and walked away with smiles and a huge sense of accomplishment.

I know some have already said this, but practice with a weighted rope, rappels and changeovers until you feel comfortable doing it blind folded (Dont do it blind folded. but you know what I am saying.) A weighted rope is going to make everything a little different, some things expected and others unexpected.

Take your time rappelling Fantastic Pit, it should take 10 minutes or more, you don't want to burn the rope up... rope is expensive and your buddies are going to be pissed if they cant climb out!

Be prepared to spend a long time in the cave, our slow but cautious team of 6 ended up spending 16 hours in Ellison's that day. Figure about 3 hours per caver, this is slow but you may as well count on it.

Work out your logistics a head of time, you're going to be hauling a lot of gear/food/water around. I ended up carrying the 660 foot rope around (Yes we rigged the attic... just something about that last 80 feet you just have to do!) so the rest of the guys split up my gear to haul around.

We probably had a little too much gear... I think we had one too many ropes, but at least we had enough. The only mistake I made was not drinking enough water... kind of dumb too since I carry a emergency filter/tablets. Its kind of hard to monitor your body when you're running on adrenaline.

Scariest part for me was the climb out of fantastic, probably because at those heights the rope seems as thick dental floss, but you suck it up and concentrate on your climbing. Longest 30 minutes of my life!

Please do your homework and training and you'll have a "Fantastic" time.
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