Aluminum deposits on rope

[caverdoc]

Cheryl, I can remember back at VPI when we couldn't wait to get some new PMI "greyed up" with aluminum smears. My first rack had aluminum bars but now I use a BMS micro-rack for most stuff. Still have a couple racks around, both with steel and with aluminum bar sets. May have to try that setup described above with the top 3 steel and bottom 3 Al.

Cheryl, do you remember that time you and Don (and the Aldersons) were up at my and Phil B's dorm room? Don climbed the Vawter Hall wall below our window (a feat later repeated by Phillip). You guys were using some kind of treatment to turn your plain aluminum carabiners into a nice dark grey color that set them apart from your caving buddy's stuff.

Could you PM me that secret formula?

Cheerios,
Dr Jay

[Cheryl Jones]

Hey, aluminum marks on ropes and groves in Al break bars were status marks!! As were grooves we'd get in oval biners, and even the descending ring connecting them, when using a single or double break bar - carabiner rig to rappel.

Interestingly enough, I don't recall anyone being injured or dying from biner or break bar failure when using that system. Or from rope failure from an alum. oxide coating. Or from a rope glazed by too fast rappels on double break bar rigs! Battery acid from Wheat lamps was our main concern. And Jumars breaking.

Jay, the secret formula is SO secret that I have encoded it and placed it in a super zip file in the archive section of my brain. It did work well to help us sort biners after a trip. in the days before biners were offered in a rainbow of colors.

And dinosaurs roamed the earth....

Cheryl

[KENTO]

Hey , I learned on a 2 biners with brake bar set-up , then bought a figure eight because I read they weren't safe and I couldn't afford a rack yet. After 2 years suffering trying to be a vertical caver with an 8 , I got more money and bought the new PMI rack with SMC bars, only one shape then , J-bar. That worked fine for me from Indiana to Mexico over the next 10 years. But guess what kind of a rig I took with me to Lechugilla in 1989 after learning that people were struggling with 2 choices in there because of grungy Gorilla shit crusty ropes , one , a heavy but adjustable rack versus , two , a light weight but poorly functional eight. I chose my light weight biners and bars and my old Swiss seat from 1976. The rope got a mite toasty going down the 150' free BoulderFalls because my butt was covered only by cotton gym trunks with spandex trunks beneath that , not bluejeans. But hey , that's why you buy really good leather gloves , right. Even with a 20 # cave pack , I got myself down with no bottom belay. I was a little more nervous , but not a liability to the expedition when starting down Apricot Pit , a non vertical drop , I realized it was necessary to pop out my top biner and bar. Omigod here we go with another big flurry of righteous and informative postings about reckless , arrogan...but wait theres more. I survived , I'm getting old potbellied , bald on top grey on the sides, but I'm not bragging. I proceeded downward slowly and SMOOTHLY for one hundred or so feet until the angle steepened and the Gorilla shit turned slimy not gritty. I put my top biner and bar back into use and finished the drop without any of the loud frustrated vocalizations exhibited by my traveling companions , both who were useing figure eights. My old rig is back in the closet where it belongs. Nowadays I would use my Ti Mini rack with stainless plus one hyper-bar. Nuff said

[caverdoc]

KENTO
You're going to make me cry with nostalgia if you keep that up...

I remember those descender ring-linked carabiner brake bars! Still have a set in the bottom of a Rubbermaid tote, somewhere.

Honestly, my friends, I never gave much thought to aluminum smears on any of my ropes. Most of the time, early in my career, I was just glad I didn't have to make long rappels on Goldline In the last couple years I've moved to mostly 9 and 10mm ropes, and it's not an issue. I clean my ropes so meticulously after trips it's no biggie. Most of my caving buddies use the micro-rack or a Petzl descender so any aluminum deposited must be minimal.

Almost makes me want to return to cable ladders for caving!

Dr Jay

[KENTO]

Well , I might get alittle misty eyed too , but having used a cable ladder only a couple of times and hating it , because I had seen the the corrosion/swage/cable failures at club meetings....in short no I WON'T be taking the old ladder back off the shelf.

[KENTO]

It might bear repeating , I've heard Norm Pace tell this more than once and you can read it yourself in " Yochib the River Cave " by Bill Steele. Norm did survive a very near death experience trapped underwater in a raging waterfall drop. His life was spared when his top belayer companion cut the rope thinking him certainly dead. He was able to climb safer and unbelayed back up the cable ladder through the torrent after a suitable resting period. He then got to shock the living daylights out of his companions when he arrived at the entrance to find them planning on retrieving his dead/NOT YET body.

[reeffish1073]

ive read throught the posts. and from my background and education, i doubt that the greying of the rope has little affect on its stregnth. for starters this is why they put a protective outer covering on the rope.

oxidation is the process of corrosion. corrosion of metal is the metals tendency to want to return to its basic form. in aluminum the greyish corosion is actually a desireable form of corosion that seals and protects the metal internally from furthur corosion. you see this as well in stainless steel and other steels. ( a darker grey to almost black in steels) when it comes to aluminium and friction surfices, id'e be more concerned of excessive wear. (erosion due to friction) when i see equipment like my rappel devices start to show excessive wear, i replace them

ok back to rope and rope greying form aluminium oxide. (corrosion) because aluminum has plasticity, (a characteristic of metals) the corosion comes off and some of the metal to. you generally notice this on the ends of the rope where you start a rappell from. at this point the gains are fine coming off the aluminium to the rope. were talking at a microscopic level, nearing the atomic level. aluminium grain structure from chrystilazation is fine for figure 8's and rappel racks due to the forging process. this makes it stronger and harder to resist the friction erosion process but this still hapens from the heat of the friction. ive seen some grey rope cut into, and the inside was for the most clean, no greyish coloring of the inside. now this could varry on rope usage too. some are more frugal to replace there equipment than others when they feel concerned. i dont know if there is any manufacture data on aluminium oxide, as i have not seen any. in my conclusion, i see no problem to the rope from this. this is just my opinion. i see no reason to be overly concerned about the rope greying. just my two cents.

john

[caverdoc]

Those folks who have done the New River Gorge no doubt know about the "rusty iron" of the catwalks, especially the handrails. The grade steel is supposed to oxidize for "x" microns deep and then stabilize, further protecting the underlying alloy.
Very disconcerting at first to run your hands along the rails as the valley drops below to the river...

Dr J