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Andy, it sounds to me like you already grip the upper ascender correctly. It doesn't matter what style of ascender you have up there, but for me I've found that even changing which hand I grip the ascender with and which hand is over top of that one makes a difference in my forearm fatigue. Since I'm right handed I tend to grasp the upper ascender (a basic) with my right and overlap my left. I just meant you should change this up during your climb. Left over right for a while and vice versa. It seems to help me. As with any repetitive motion, variance helps. Other than that its just trying to keep your body as straight up and down as possible while stepping up in your footloops. Point your toes, heels under your butt, etc. But I'm sure you know that already. But that doesn't have much to do with a pantin.
I enjoy that pantin for difficult lips, frog walking and other types of ascending systems that I use in other venues. Just go with your dominant leg if you want to get one.

sorry, but since a basic is a right handed ascender with a handle chopped off..........and a croll is a left handed ascender with the handle chopped off, then a left handed basic to me would be a croll. I mean, they look identical other than the tab at the bottom being bent. Obviously there are suttle differences but BASICally, a lefty is a croll. however, I didn't realize that petzl actually made a left handed basic that was called a basic. learn something every day.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I also routinely use the "shake it out" method. I climb 25 reps and then rest briefly to shake out my arms and let them hang for a few seconds. Considering my arm issues, I am thinking of altering this to raising my arms above my head instead. Maybe this would help drain fluid? I don't mind being pumped, but sometimes it gets to be scary pumped.

Prolific rock climber and climbing fitness writer Eric Hörst promotes a shake-out method that he refers to as "G-Tox" - alternating a dangling arm shake with an elevated arm shake - which has been shown to provide statistically significant improvements in bloodflow and lactic acid flush from the arms. In my personal experience, the biggest benefit comes from the additional rest time provided when you inevitably have to explain to your belayer why you're flailing your arms around like an epileptic bird in slow-motion.

http://www.mountainzone.com/blogs/performance_training/2006/07/study-shows-g-tox-accelerates-recovery.html

http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttsport232/

One good way to prevent arm fatigue frogging is not to have a 48 " chest like me. The higher the weight mass on your body , the more you tip back and use your arms on each up step to pull you close to the rope. The roller on a rope walker negates a lot of that when rope walking at the expense of working your roller harder. I just live with sore arms but still love the frog. I have frog climbed Surprise and Fantastic and had sore arms , but I lived through it.

driggs wrote:In my personal experience, the biggest benefit comes from the additional rest time provided when you inevitably have to explain to your belayer why you're flailing your arms around like an epileptic bird in slow-motion.

This will go well with Andy's penguin-looking mountaineer shoulder thrusting anti-hypothermia technique. Sadly, no diagram.

Chads93GT wrote:sorry, but since a basic is a right handed ascender with a handle chopped off..........and a croll is a left handed ascender with the handle chopped off, then a left handed basic to me would be a croll. I mean, they look identical other than the tab at the bottom being bent. Obviously there are suttle differences but BASICally, a lefty is a croll.

No, they are significantly different. Yes, some cavers use a Croll as their upper frog ascender and it functions much the same IN THAT ROLE. But try frogging with a chest Basic in place of a Croll some time. I've done it before, and it sucked.

Anonymous Andy... I'd offer to loan you my right handed Pantin, but it's in storage a long way away. I've used it, but only a handful of times. I should probably give it another chance one of these days.

NZcaver wrote:Anonymous Andy... I'd offer to loan you my right handed Pantin, but it's in storage a long way away. I've used it, but only a handful of times. I should probably give it another chance one of these days.

Thanks for the offer, but since there is no way you can actually get it to me, I'll chalk this one right up there with Greg's offer for me to buy whatever I want and then give him the stuff I don't like. Very helpful.

Besides, I thought Amy had all of your ascenders by now.

My point is that the croll is like the basic in that its small, compact, one is right, one is left, and neither have a handle. Not that they are exact mirror images of each other and that they function exactly the opposite of each other, only that neither has a handle, and one is right and one is left.

I never said you could frog with a basic as a chest ascender, nor did I insinuate that.

As annonymous_coward said "its sort of like a basic". I was just backing up what he had already stated.

Chads93GT wrote:My point is that the croll is like the basic in that its small, compact, one is right, one is left, and neither have a handle. Not that they are exact mirror images of each other and that they function exactly the opposite of each other, only that neither has a handle, and one is right and one is left.

And my point is the Croll is not "a left handed ascender with the handle chopped off." A Basic is essentially a right handed ascender with the handle chopped off. The Croll has a different shape, different attachment point hole sizes/angles, and the rope channel is different. As I recall, about the only thing the same is the cam.

Regardless, I agree the Croll should function fine as an upper ascender even though I wouldn't personally use it for that.

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Thanks for the offer, but since there is no way you can actually get it to me, I'll chalk this one right up there with Greg's offer for me to buy whatever I want and then give him the stuff I don't like. Very helpful.

Besides, I thought Amy had all of your ascenders by now.

I specialize in "helpful." Back in 2006 I loaned my spare micro rack to a friend to try, and he and his kids are apparently still trying it. Amy obtained a pair of the earlier Petzl handled ascenders. If you think that's "all of my ascenders" you clearly don't know me as well as I thought you did.

Good luck with your Pantin quest.

I find it easier to use a handled Petzl when you have to unclip from the rope and hook it back up above a sharp break over than a basic in that same situation. Maybe because I am just used to the handled Petzl for the upper on a frog as well as a safety on a rope walker. I just cannot see how changing from a handled ascender to a basic ( or similar) can make a difference in how tired my arms feel on a frog. When you have the upper body weight I have I think your arms are going to be tired no matter what if you have to climb any real distance. Maybe for someone with a smaller build. I had heard that a long time ago and tried both the basic and the croll and a small CMI and for me it did not change anything. I tried gripping the basic with my right hand and my left on a 100 foot drop. I am right handed but eat with my left. Maybe it is just my size ???

Jeff Bartlett wrote: I can't jam two ascenders together into a 69-of-death.

Very nice description

Jeff Bartlett wrote:Andy's penguin-looking mountaineer shoulder thrusting anti-hypothermia technique. Sadly, no diagram.

Not such a good description... please provide a diagram.

Extremeophile wrote:

Jeff Bartlett wrote: I can't jam two ascenders together into a 69-of-death.

Very nice description

Great phrase, but wouldn't this mythical union be more accurately described as the missionary-of-death?