Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby bigredfoote » Dec 2, 2011 3:15 pm

Do you mean boulder falls? You need less gear on apricot pit, not more!! But anyways I'm thinking about getting one to try out too. I think I usually have my right leg in the foot loop, so I'm thinking get a left for the pantin and kick it off when I'm against a wall?

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby gdstorrick » Dec 2, 2011 6:29 pm

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 2, 2011 11:28 pm

gdstorrick wrote:For me, the Cuddington 3-phase works best. Maybe it would work for you, maybe not. If you never tried it and don't give it a serious try it in the future, you will never really know if it would help you or not.


Care to 'splain what you're talking about here? Never heard of that one. Some kind of Mitchell system?
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 3, 2011 12:16 am

Anonymous_Coward wrote:
gdstorrick wrote:For me, the Cuddington 3-phase works best. Maybe it would work for you, maybe not. If you never tried it and don't give it a serious try it in the future, you will never really know if it would help you or not.


Care to 'splain what you're talking about here? Never heard of that one. Some kind of Mitchell system?


Its the 3 knot rig that bill cuddington uses and has used ever since he started the srt revolution. Marion Smith uses it. Ill stick with my ropewalker, lol
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby gdstorrick » Dec 3, 2011 8:09 am

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Dec 3, 2011 11:55 pm

paul wrote:It is also worth consdiering how you grip the ascender. I was taught (and indeed have seen it recommended in various articles on frogging) not to grip the handle but to clasp both hands together behind the ascender.

This improves technique so that your arms tend to only hold your body inwards towards the rope while your much stronger leg muscles so more of the work. You shold not need to pull your body upwards using your arms, only to keep your body in close to the rope.
:

Also, for this reason, it is often recommended to get an ascender without a handle (like the Petzl Basic) if you only use the ascender while prusiking. This not only saves weight and size but promotes a better prusiking technique.

:exactly: Fore arm pump sound's like you're over gripping as forearms power the fingers.

I also find telling people (strange as it sounds) to try to run their nose up the rope really helps as makes them bring their upper body in towards the rope.... and if they exit the pitch with a black spot or brown spot on the end of thier nose you know they've been doing it correctly :laughing: and you can pay them out later :tonguecheek:

I found I had to rope walk with the same leg and arm lifting at once, so if you want to grip you ascender in the handle as you ropewalk then the right handled Pantin would be better, if you like to grip the top of the ascender (like I do) when rope walking then I find it easier to use the opposite hand but it's no huge issue... But considering you didn't mention being able to ropewalk then this is possibly irrelevant :shrug:
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Cody JW » Dec 4, 2011 1:13 pm

gdstorrick wrote:
Anonymous_Coward wrote:If you actually read my original post...


Yes, I did, and I was trying to suggest considering another system. You talk about your arms getting pumped. Maybe your technique is bad, or maybe your body build isn't right for frogging long distances. My arms get tired if I try to frog that far, so the same comment applies to me. Adding a Pantin doesn't help me, switching to another system does. And yes, there are other systems that can cross rebelays quite well, if that's your thing.

I have nothing against the frog, and despite the old saying "Friends Don't Let Friends Climb Frog," I've been teaching folks to use the frog (among others) since the 70s. A few of them switched to the frog permanently. Others did not. For me, the Cuddington 3-phase works best. Maybe it would work for you, maybe not. If you never tried it and don't give it a serious try it in the future, you will never really know if it would help you or not.

And to the lurker reading this (you know whoo you are): I haven't learned to stay out of these discussions yet. Going down in flames again......

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I say "Friends should not let friends climb short drops with a ropewalker, I have both frog and ropewalker . Very simple- Frog = light weight compact system for short drops. Ropewalker= not as compact as frog but much more efficient and more suitable for long drops with no rebelays. I am top heavy and fight like hell with a frog to keep my upper girth close to the rope, but I still love it for short drops. Normally do not use my ropewalker unless I go to TAG.
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Stan Allison » Dec 4, 2011 3:30 pm

Hey Andy,

Once you have played around with your right-footed Pantin, please let us know what you think about it. I hope it works well for you. I had a right-footed Pantin in 1999 when they first came out as that was the only option at the time. At first I thought the Pantin was great caving here in the Guadalupe Mountains. I took it on a trip to a 1,270 meter deep cave in Mexico and decided to stop using it. It was just one more piece of equipment to have to detach and reattach to the rope after passing the hundreds of rebelays and even on 200 meter free drops, I didn't find it that useful. Having said that, I liked the right foot version because that is my stronger leg and I like to be able to kick my left foot out of the footloop and push against the wall with it while still propelling myself upward with my right leg.

I agree with fuzzy-hair-man and Paul concerning using a Petzl Basic ascender with both hands wrapped behind the ascender to avoid the arm pump. I suppose this method could be done with a handled ascender, but it is too tempting to grab the handle. Besides the handle is unnecessary weight and bulk. I know I'm using weight and bulk as an argument with the wrong guy since you bring a barbecue grill to rappel with! :big grin:

Like you, I have a long torso in proportion to my height. I still really like the Frog. I started out vertical caving with the Mitchel System using the Cuddington 3 phase that Gary mentioned. After my first trip to a deep Mexico cave with rebelays and big drops, I switched over to a Frog System and have never been tempted to drag the Mitchell System out of the closet.

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Lava » Dec 5, 2011 12:36 am

I had the opposite experience that Stan did - I used a Pantin for the first time this summer in Croatia. In the first short(er) cave I used it in, I hated it. But then I used it in a second cave and it grew on me. By the time we did the big 1392 m deep cave, I was comfortable enough with it that might have made the trip as much as 20% easier (yet my butt was still kicked :laughing:).
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 5, 2011 10:43 am

Well now, this has somehow turned into a halfway decent thread!

Thanks again for all the advice. I will pay more attention to how much force I am using to grip the upper ascender. I try to "hold on loosely", but perhaps my fear of heights death grip is kicking in more than I realize. For those interested, I do not normally use the handle on the ascension. I grasp around the top of the ascender with my left hand, and then wrap my right hand around that. This is how I was originally taught to frog. Is this what you all mean by "clasped together behind the ascender?" I am confused wondering which direction is behind? Closer to the body?

I get the argument for losing the handle, even I don't use it that much. My hangup is that they don't make the Basic in a left-handed version. I am hung up on using a left-handed ascender there because I always have. Probably not a compelling reason I know, but we all have certain ways we like our gear to be. Maybe I should just use a croll there in place of the ascension. It's sort of like a left-handed basic. I already do this with my canyoneering SRT rig. Hmmm....

I also routinely use the "shake it out" method. I climb 25 reps and then rest briefly to shake out my arms and let them hang for a few seconds. Considering my arm issues, I am thinking of altering this to raising my arms above my head instead. Maybe this would help drain fluid? I don't mind being pumped, but sometimes it gets to be scary pumped.

What I really need is a good rappelling tower in my yard so I can practice more and work all this out. Not too many big trees 'round here....
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 5, 2011 11:34 am

Anonymous_Coward wrote:I get the argument for losing the handle, even I don't use it that much. My hangup is that they don't make the Basic in a left-handed version. I am hung up on using a left-handed ascender there because I always have. Probably not a compelling reason I know, but we all have certain ways we like our gear to be. Maybe I should just use a croll there in place of the ascension. It's sort of like a left-handed basic. I already do this with my canyoneering SRT rig. Hmmm....


I, too, made the switch from a left-handed Ascension to the essentially right-handed Basic, but it didn't take that much to get used to. I used to grip the Ascension with my left hand and wrap the right around it, just as you describe, and now I do the reverse of that with my left hand wrapped around the right. Since I'm right-handed anyway, this is probably more natural; besides, with the Basic facing me on rope, the cam is on my right side and is operated with my right thumb. It also allows me to use my right hand to engage the cam in the dreaded "my ascenders are balled up with goo because I wore my vertical gear into some heinous peanut-butter crawl no one goes to" scenario.

It's commonly taught to use a left-handed ascender for the upper because of the theoretical possibility that the upper ascender and croll can jam together. I believe there was a cavechat thread at one point asking if this has ever actually happened. I've tried extensively to intentionally create this situation in a practice environment, with no success. Let the record read: I can break just about anything, but I can't jam two ascenders together into a 69-of-death.

If you make the switch, don't forget to add a bit of length to your ascender attachment and footloop, to compensate for the length of the Ascension handle. It's worth noting that the Basic only has one reasonably-sized hole, while the Ascension has two.

Also worth noting: my technique in long, free drops sure improved tremendously when I moved to TAG. That's your best bet, right there.
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby gdstorrick » Dec 5, 2011 6:01 pm

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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Chads93GT » Dec 5, 2011 6:36 pm

FYI a left handed basic is called a croll.
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Dec 5, 2011 6:49 pm

gdstorrick wrote:
Jeff Bartlett wrote:Also worth noting: my technique in long, free drops sure improved tremendously when I moved to TAG. That's your best bet, right there.


Great advice. What am I doing in the Corn Desert when I get weekly job offers in TAG?


That's where you're going wrong, the whole job thing. I moved here without one! :)
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
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Re: Buying a pantin - Should I get right or left?

Postby gdstorrick » Dec 5, 2011 7:29 pm

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