Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Discuss vertical caving, equipment, & techniques. Also visit the NSS Vertical Section.

Moderator: Tim White

Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 22, 2011 5:34 pm

Anyone ever use one of these? I'm finding it's design very attractive. Can belay or rappel single or double ropes, stays attached to harness, can hold 600lbs with two fingers, available in stainless for virtually no wear and minimal heat buildup. Weighs slightly more than a stop.

Conterra ran a mile of rope through this thing and it maintained a safe temp.

What are your thoughts?
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby NZcaver » Nov 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Previous forum topic including discussion of the Scarab here.
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6316
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CCG
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 22, 2011 6:20 pm

NZcaver wrote:Previous forum topic including discussion of the Scarab here.


I swear I searched for it here and nothing came up! Lol

I Think this thing has alot of potential. The versatility of a rack but much simpler and smaller.
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby LukeM » Nov 23, 2011 8:42 am

Comparing the stainless version of this to a micro rack the weights aren't that different. I wonder how they differ in versatility. The Ti version would be nice.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 23, 2011 10:40 am

The ti version would be nice but I think it would wear quickly with a dirty rope. The stainless version being about the weight of a stop is fine for me. This thing is versatile. Just pop a bight through, trap the bar, and hook the top horn. If u need additional friction just wrap another horn. Very easy to add friction Amd lock off.

Can anyone hear provide us with a review??
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 23, 2011 12:09 pm

I'm not keen on devices where the rope rubs directly on the frame. Sooner or later it will get cut in half and on ropes with any grit it will be much sooner. Rack bars are cheap to replace when worn out. Just my opinion.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Cody JW » Nov 23, 2011 1:40 pm

Caver John wrote:The ti version would be nice but I think it would wear quickly with a dirty rope. The stainless version being about the weight of a stop is fine for me. This thing is versatile. Just pop a bight through, trap the bar, and hook the top horn. If u need additional friction just wrap another horn. Very easy to add friction Amd lock off.

Can anyone hear provide us with a review??
If you wrap too many horns will people complain about the twist in the rope like they do an 8 ?? It does look kind of neat, I like small compact devices for short drops. Chad, if I see too much wear on the frame of my 8 I replace it . If it is steel it will take time to wear any grooves if it is anything like the steel 8.
It only takes one person to surrender a dog to a kill shelter ,but it takes many to rescue it.
User avatar
Cody JW
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Oct 24, 2007 10:16 am
Location: Indianapolis In. USA
Name: Jeff Cody
NSS #: 23961
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 23, 2011 2:04 pm

They say this does not twist the rope at all, as far as rubbing onthe frame, like I said before, they ran a mile of dirty rope through this thing and no wear(stainless model).
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 23, 2011 2:26 pm

Caver John wrote:They say this does not twist the rope at all, as far as rubbing onthe frame, like I said before, they ran a mile of dirty rope through this thing and no wear(stainless model).

Any time a rappel device forms a loop in the rope, there will be twisting. A rope must be twisted to form a loop. Racks, bobbins, ATC's, etc use bites of rope. Fig 8, micro-racks, Scarabs, munter hitch, etc use loops of rope. Note that racks/micro racks with hyperbars form a loop in the rope when the rope goes over it while rappelling. If you are wondering how much different devices twist ropes, I did some testing.
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 23, 2011 2:33 pm

Caver John wrote:They say this does not twist the rope at all, as far as rubbing onthe frame, like I said before, they ran a mile of dirty rope through this thing and no wear(stainless model).


I highly doubt the accuracy of that claim. I bought a new SMC
Micro rack and did two 120' drops on our project cave and the
Rope was completely mud caked from the dome climb. When I
Got home and cleaned my rack, all four bars had a groove over
1/16" in depth. I highly doubt their rope was very dirty. Either
That or SMC uses Chinese steel.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 23, 2011 3:10 pm

Any time a rappel device forms a loop in the rope, there will be twisting. A rope must be twisted to form a loop. Racks, bobbins, ATC's, etc use bites of rope. Fig 8, micro-racks, Scarabs, munter hitch, etc use loops of rope. Note that racks/micro racks with hyperbars form a loop in the rope when the rope goes over it while rappelling. If you are wondering how much different devices twist ropes, I did some testing.



If you look online at a picture of the scarab with rope running through it, the rope path takes the same "double bite" form as a stop. If you use an extra horn, it's the same as using a break Biner on the stop.

There's no loop of rope, just bites. Unless u wrap a third horn, then u have a loop.

http://www.conterra-inc.com/images/thum ... abbig1.jpg
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Nov 23, 2011 3:26 pm

This is actually incorrect; it is, indeed, a loop of rope. See here (http://www.conterra-inc.com/images/deta ... bready.jpg) and here (http://www.conterra-inc.com/images/deta ... abbig1.jpg).

It's exactly the same situation you see when you run a rope over a hyperbar, as Scott explained. Using multiple "horns," as shown here (http://www.conterra-inc.com/images/deta ... abwrap.jpg), would appear to twist the rope horribly. Likewise, this double-rope method involving two horns looks like a mess waiting to happen (http://www.conterra-inc.com/images/deta ... arabII.jpg).

This thing reminds me of a big, stainless steel version of the Petzl Pirana, the primary difference being the large tube-shaped wear surface in the center; where the Pirana is based on an 8, this appears to be based on a rack or a brake-tube style descender. While stainless steel descenders can certainly be more viable for caving than aluminum ones like the Pirana, adding a half-dozen "additional friction" options doesn't necessarily sidestep certain limitations. A rack with eight hyperbars is still, fundamentally, a rack.

Braking carabiners used in conjuntion with a bobbin descender are a different animal; a standard "carabiner next to bobbin" approach won't twist the rope, but I suspect using a Freino might twist it a bit.
Last edited by Jeff Bartlett on Nov 24, 2011 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Although it pains me to say it, in this case Jeff is right. Plan accordingly." --Andy Armstrong
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Cody JW » Nov 23, 2011 3:48 pm

I have posted this before but I have never had much of a problem with the 8 twisting the rope. Any undesirable effects from it have not been an issue for me. With all the short drops here in Indiana I use the steel 8 a lot, it seems it takes a long time for grooves to wear in the steel 8. Not sure if the Scarab is the same kind of steel as the 8 ?? I have a rack but do not use it unless I go to TAG. It seems the steel on the solid steel bars wear faster than the steel on the 8. I notice the steel bars on the micro rack seems to wear faster than then bars on the regular rack. Wonder if any of you can come up with any comparisons or tests on the steel in the 8 vs the steel in the micro bars vs steel in the standard rack bars.
It only takes one person to surrender a dog to a kill shelter ,but it takes many to rescue it.
User avatar
Cody JW
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Oct 24, 2007 10:16 am
Location: Indianapolis In. USA
Name: Jeff Cody
NSS #: 23961
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby gdstorrick » Nov 23, 2011 4:10 pm

Post deleted.
Last edited by gdstorrick on Jul 8, 2012 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
gdstorrick
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Jan 3, 2009 11:06 am
Location: MI, USA
Name: Gary Storrick
NSS #: 12967
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Pittsburgh
  

Re: Conterra Scarab rescue belay/rappel tool

Postby Caver John » Nov 23, 2011 5:19 pm

Upon further investigation, I suppose there is a loop there.
Funny that the website specifically says won't twist rope.
I've seen cOmpanies talk up there products before but usually regarding rescue gear there's more honesty.

That review has no cOmmemts regarding it's funtionality or twist.
Good site though.
Caver John
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Jun 16, 2011 1:02 pm
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Scag grotto
  

Next

Return to On Rope!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot]