How do you tie this knot?

[hank moon]

The two advantages of this kind of lanyard are:
2) it turns a short piece of static line into a dynamic shock absorber.

theoweticawy, sure. like to see some drop test data, though. Dirty rope? Wonder how much force it takes to make a worn/fuzzy/dirty triple-wrap prusik slip on a worn/fuzzy/dirty host rope. Wet and dry testing...Hmmm...

[knudeNoggin]

Ignoring the Prusik cord, is this the knot you're describing?

Well, you have the idea, clearly; the right-hand component however is botched
in the same way On Rope, 1st ed. botched it--and you have actually shown
an Overhand (one wrap less than intended).

Now, what I meant in pointing to an easier-to-untie similar loopknot,
bring the end through the single Overhand from the opposite side that it
*exited*, over the exiting part (this cannot be tied in the bight (i.e., w/o ends)).
In your image, this re-entry point is a thin white slit, between exiting end
into eye and U-turn of the mainline in forming this Overhand--this slit is just
left of the 1st (re-entering point) end-arrow, moving perpendicularly to the
end).
(In some knot books, the Honda or Bowstring knots have this structure.)

Btw, I too would like to see the suppposed shock-absorbing effects of this structure tested
--maybe there's roughly assured slippage at some load, but getting there all
of a sudden doesn't seem pleasant. Still, on a short piece, harness & body yield
plays a significant role.

*knudeNoggin*

[Adam Byrd]

This lanyard sure is a devil to tie! I've tried a few times with one from On Rope in hand, and I have a hard time getting the prussik to be the right length.

This lanyard comes in handy for me if I'm doing a changeover from ascending to descending on my frog rig with a 6 bar rack. No problem with not having any slack in my long cowtail to release the upper ascender once the rack is threaded, since I can just give myself a few extra inches to work with.

Obviously this setup has shortcomings. It is not going to work if passing rebelays or other obstacles since it doesn't have a short cowtail.

[NZcaver]

Well, you have the idea, clearly; the right-hand component however is botched in the same way On Rope, 1st ed. botched it--and you have actually shown an Overhand (one wrap less than intended)....

But doesn't that directly contradict your last description?

This is simple: make a Slip-Knot; tie off the end with a Strangle (Dbl.eOverhand).

A Slip-Knot is just an Overhand with the end fed back through - right? Perhaps I should have been more clear when I asked which knot you were attempting to describe. I was looking to see how On Rope 1 ties these lanyards - not to discuss other variations (like modifying the Overhand to function like a minimal Timber Hitch, etc). Anyway - in a configuration like this, is there really an advantage in making the knots easier to untie? Once they're set, I never untie my cowstails.

And since these are sold as "one" functioning item, Bruce probably doesn't intend his customers to untie them/pull them apart either...

[cave rat]

On the OR1 Adjustable Lanyards, I have found that, over a period of time, a Benner will glaze the inside of the loop you attach yourself to your harness with.

The knot is not hard to retie. So when I got myself a new one, I broke down the old one and learned how to tie it.

I then installed a piece of 1" of Tub Webbing over the 9MM rope at the loop and retied it.

I now have a webbing selve over the rope and the benner is not rubbing the rope no more.

A little bit of assurance and I feel a little bit of comfort with it now. I am going to show Bruce this set up, next time I see him.

[knudeNoggin]

Well, you have the idea, clearly; the right-hand component however is botched in the same way On Rope, 1st ed. botched it--and you have actually shown an Overhand (one wrap less than intended)....

But doesn't that directly contradict your last description?

I'm not sure what your question is, but what I said was that you presented the
knot used in the OR structure, but YOU misdrew the Dbl.Overhand finish (and
did so similarly to how one book has done it (and how that one book's image has
been copied w/o correction elsewhere, too!)).

A Slip-Knot is just an Overhand with the end fed back through - right?

"A Slip-knot is ..." depends whom you ask or consult, but, yes, in Ashley, often
regarded as the standard reference for knots, this is true. (Often enough, what
is intended is the Overhand noose--simply the same structure but the load is
on that *slipping* end.)

not to discuss other variations (like modifying the Overhand to function like a minimal Timber Hitch, etc). Anyway - in a configuration like this, is there really an advantage in making the knots easier to untie? Once they're set, I never untie my cowstails.

Yes, but why not get some further knot knowledge along for the ride?
That alternative loopknot might tickle your fancy (fancy that!).

I now have a webbing selve over the rope and the benner is not rubbing the rope no more.

For my prior suggestion of tying the Prusik cord directly to the clip-in device
(carabiner or ...?), one could use a Clove noose, which should snug up and hold
untensioned (not loosen, i.e.) well. Periodically, to distribute wear, both this
attachment knot and the Prusik on the lanyard could be loosened and the cord
shifted to put new material at these points, and re-tightened.

*knudeNoggin*

[NZcaver]

I'm not sure what your question is, but what I said was that you presented the knot used in the OR structure, but YOU misdrew the Dbl.Overhand finish (anddid so similarly to how one book has done it (and how that one book's image has been copied w/o correction elsewhere, too!))...

OK, I think I see what's going on here. I tied a Barrel Knot (aka half a Double Fisherman's) as my finish, but the "Double Overhand" you're referring to is different - it's one Overhand after another, right?

I'm geographically separated from my copy of On Rope at the moment (which is a 2nd edition anyway), so in regard to the drawing error I'll have to take your word for it. Maybe Bruce and Alan intended to show the Barrel Knot as the finish, and not a Double Overhand?

Anyway, thanks for trying to clarify. You obviously know your knots, but sometimes I find your descriptions a little tough to decipher.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Ignoring the Prusik cord, is this the knot you're describing?



Please excuse my crude attempt at knot drawing, but sometimes I find a visual easier than trying to deciper some of that "strange terminology"...

Yes, that's the one. A mountaineer showed me how to tie that and said once it's loaded it doesn't come undone... I've tried and it's not easy at all. Thus it's a good knot for frog systems and such... the prussik is looped through the overhand portion of that particular knot and then tied around the cord to make it adjustable.

[knudeNoggin]

I'm not sure what your question is, but what I said was that you presented the knot used in the OR structure, but YOU misdrew the Dbl.Overhand finish (and did so similarly to how one book has done it ...

OK, I think I see what's going on here. I tied a Barrel Knot (aka half a Double Fisherman's) as my finish, but the "Double Overhand" you're referring to is different - it's one Overhand after another, right?

Please, I wrote exactly what I meant, don't twist it. (Knot nomenclature is
one hell of a problem!)
LOOK AT YOUR DRAWING--it's botched! Do you not see that the
finishing component is just a SINGLE Overhand knot, NOT the Dble(aka "Barrel")
that you intended?? Let's follow the arrowHEADS: 1st is okay, 2nd is okay,
3rd, on a clockwise turn, is fine; but 4th must go up under BOTH of the
horizontal parts, THEN curve clockwise OVER-then-UNDER the upper horizontal
part & out.

"Yes, that's the one." NO IT'S NOT!

Maybe Bruce and Alan intended to show the Barrel Knot as the finish, and not a Double Overhand?

1) We're talking about the same knot in those two names, sorta--though I think that
"Barrel" is also used for the Grapevine & Triple Overhand bends, not for just
one component half.
2) Beware thinking that knots books authors have a clue, or that their artists
faithfully reflect what clues they have!! I noted elsewhere the incredible blunder
in On Rope, 2nd ed. re the imbalanced Prusik hitches--where the images
got flipped upside-down (one word changed in text to match), and thus are a hitch
that WILL NOT WORK AT ALL if both ends are loaded (as the One Over... upper
strand will pull down on top of the <x>-Down coil and slide it down).
(Actually, the funny part re the botched supposed Treble Overhand bend in OR-1st
is that they also botched the number of wraps over the finger so that on balance
it works out.)

Anyway, thanks for trying to clarify. You obviously know your knots, but sometimes I find your descriptions a little tough to decipher.

That and nomenclature being what it is, yes, some Q/A iterations can be needed
to get me honed in on wherever the confusion arises. But we can ratchet in the
right direction and nail it, eventurally.

(To add to this "Dbl.Fish" confusion are some arborists who, having seen that
named knot as the Grapevine (yes) which has two Dbl.Oh. components, reasoned
(apparently) that the noose/hitch w/but one must be half of double = "(Single) Fisherman's" !
And around & around we go ... . )

*knudeNoggin*

[Wm Shrewsbury]

On the OR1 Adjustable Lanyards, I have found that, over a period of time, a Benner will glaze the inside of the loop you attach yourself to your harness with....I now have a webbing selve over the rope and the benner is not rubbing the rope no more....A little bit of assurance and I feel a little bit of comfort with it now. I am going to show Bruce this set up, next time I see him.

Well, I happen to work for Bruce as his Production Manager. Funny to see this discussion over a simple lanyard. It is composed of quite a few knots, as you can tell. A small hint on the prusik - cut the prusik cord longer than needed, tie the knot, then trim the ends short.

As for cave rat's suggestion about the tubular webbing - we typically only put it on one end since it goes through the handled ascender. As for 'glazing' the end at your seat with a carabiner... I don't believe so. Since no heat from friction is occuring between the carabine and the loop in the knot, it can't glaze from that. Additionally, even with Bruce's 1 kN of weight he can't generate enough compression force to cause glazing. It might get 'shiny' from having the fibers compressed, but I can easily guarantee that the lanyard still has not suffered any damage.

PS - we also put 1" tubular webbing over both ends about 25% of the time to accomodate extra wear-guard, just as I've done on my lanyard since 1980 or so. Thanks for your thoughts, but it is commonly sold that way.

Wm

[eyecave]

i used to tell people, when i was a caver......that one needed to know three knots.......the bowline, a figure eight, and..what i called a banana knot..a knot to join ropes together..........

....this was when i was a very active cave explorer......i did not want to know any other knots......

my reasoning was that....under fatigue from difficult caving...the chances of my making a mistake in rigging were lessened by simplicity.......and, that i could accomplish anything with those three knots.........

this topic's posts makes me say

DAMN.......i wish life was that CERTAIN again.....

[NZcaver]

...LOOK AT YOUR DRAWING--it's botched! Do you not see that the finishing component is just a SINGLE Overhand knot, NOT the Dble(aka "Barrel") that you intended??...

Damn, you're right! Boy do I suck at drawing knots - I give up.

Please ignore my previous attempt, and look at the pretty pictures instead - they show what I was trying to draw...

[NZcaver]

:rofl: i used to tell people, when i was a caver......that one needed to know three knots.......the bowline, a figure eight, and..what i called a banana knot..a knot to join ropes together..........

....this was when i was a very active cave explorer......i did not want to know any other knots......

my reasoning was that....under fatigue from difficult caving...the chances of my making a mistake in rigging were lessened by simplicity.......and, that i could accomplish anything with those three knots.........

this topic's posts makes me say

DAMN.......i wish life was that CERTAIN again.....

Just three caving knots? Ah, if only life were that SIMPLE!

If you do any vertical caving, you really should know the Prusik hitch too. You should also know how to tie a Water knot (aka Tape knot) in webbing, and a Munter hitch for emergency rappelling/belaying. Then there's a bunch more useful knots like the Butterfly, Double-loop Figure 8, Clove hitch, etc.
My suggestion - just learn one or two at a time, and then practice, practice, practice....