Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

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Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby DanHedger » Aug 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Anyone know of sources for this topic? Published or otherwise. I have On Rope, Alpine Caving and Freedom of the Hills and have gleaned what little there is about the topic. Looking for more information on the subject and have been looking for a while. Thanks In Advance :bat sticker:
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby chh » Aug 12, 2011 7:14 pm

If you're already an aid climber you know pretty much what you need to know, except that the rock in a cave will likely be crappier which as a caver you know already. If you're not and aid climber already, don't learn clead aid in a cave. Learn it outside on good solid rock. Learn the progression and gear management and THEN think about doing in a cave. And don't plan on completing a clean pitch in a cave. Take the bolt kit. Take the bolt kit. Take the bolt kit.
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby DanHedger » Aug 12, 2011 9:34 pm

Thanks cch,
Bolt Kit ready.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby donniecs » Aug 15, 2011 2:04 pm

With rock and aid climbing I usually take a anti-bolting stand (since enough people already over-bolt as it is). The few "bolt" climbs that I have done in caves, I've tried to place as much passive gear as possible (nuts, hexes, hooks, and chicken loops). As mentioned earlier rock quality is usually much worse in a cave especially if your trying to climb a crack system. I always try to place passive gear first to reduce the amount of drilling required but in the end I don't have much luck. Luckily in a cave it is easier to hid where you have drilled. Once the climb is complete, the bolts and be cleaned and holes pounded/filled in, after a few days of mud and moister you won't be able to tell anything was done, other than the anchor at the top.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby chh » Aug 15, 2011 7:34 pm

Thing about clean aid in caves is that while the placement of a piece might be good, the protection may be SH!T. Doesn't really matter if it's a cam, nut, hook, loop, piton, whathaveyou. There are, of course, exceptions. Certain Gneiss tectonic caves here in NC come to mind, but overall, in limestone, chert, etc, you are dealing with a much more fragile medium. Which is why you place bolts at least occassionally and frequently enough to keep you off the deck - ledge, whatever.
Dan, your profile says you're from Cinci which means you are probably caving and or climbing anywhere from central KY on down to TAG. There are some good climbers/cavers in your area who might be able to lend you some hands on practice in bolting in caves (or outside of them for that matter) if this is something you are not yet familiar with. Or might be willing to head down to the Red to practice some clean aid on some existing outdoor climbs with you. PM me if you're interested.
If you are already an experienced aid climber, don't know that I can help you much, only to say again that you probably already have enough sense to make it work. Some of the bars and/or platforms outlined in ACT may work very well, but I wouldn't know. The only aid experience I have is with nylon ladders, so I can't help you there. But there may be someone on this forum who could help you out with more specific advice as far as Raumer bars and things of that nature go if that's what you're looking for.
Actually, a little idea of what your aid climbing experience is might help out a lot so we all know where to start from. What do you have in mind?
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby PeterFJohnson » Aug 15, 2011 9:00 pm

Dan, I too searched for anything I could find on aid climbing underground and came up with little. I wasn't even looking for clean aid, just bolted aid. Even the stuff in OnRope and ACT is pretty limited. I am assuming since you are even thinking about clean aid that you come from a climbing background? Perhaps the books from that world is your best bet?

If you are going to end up bolting there is some info on the Raumer stick up on cavediggers.com. I also noticed recently that Inner Mountain Outfitters has Raumer Alien hangers on their website. Not sure if these means they actually have them in stock though.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby PeterFJohnson » Aug 16, 2011 3:02 pm

A few other links involving aid climbing I found in my old emails. Sorry Dan, nothing specific on clean aid, just a few mentions of climbs ranging up to A4.

Trip report for a 200 ft dome in Canada:
http://www.cavediggers.com/CastleguardAven.pdf

And an article on TAG with a focus on the 396 ft. Topless Dome climb:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... 9&hl=en_US
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby DanHedger » Aug 16, 2011 7:50 pm

Thanks Guys,

I appreciate the positive feedback. This subject has interested me since the first time I saw an upper level lead that I couldn't get to. Been safely working towards them ever since and would like to keep it that way. I believe I am at an Intermediate level as far as SRT goes. For the most part I use a Frog w/Pantin . But if I'm in the mood I'll use knots ect. I climb around 5.10 -Sport. However, my trad experience has been limited to hook placements at bouldering height to get the length right on my aiders and to figure out the sequence. So far the hooks have blown out rock too many times for my comfort level. (Got the aider balancing act down right away). I hope to take time down at Red River Gorge cleaning a route or top roping some 5.1A ish thing to learn the real deal above ground. I have concerns that sandstone or limestone wont hold up to cam hooks or hooks in general for intermediate moves, and most of what I've seen in-cave so far has mostly followed exactly that type of placement. The Metolius/C3 thread got me interested in tricams so I'll be working with a couple of those at some point. I've got a small collection of bodyweight only pro so far.

Clean- aid seems feasable to me because of the need to place as few bolts as possible for lots of reasons. The safety of others, cave conservation and cost ect. I feel fairly confident in my ability to physically place bolts. It's the progression technique that is causing the problem. On Rope is one way and ACT is another on a variety of things so I guess I should learn both ways and make up my own mind.

BTW I Read an article about a cavers daisy made from 7.8mm rope and a mini traxion. The setup saved his life http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum ... rip-report.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby chh » Aug 16, 2011 8:46 pm

Again, I may be stating the obvious, but clean aid climbing doesn't have to be pitches of nothing but hook placements. You use hooks and body weight placements only when there isn't anything better - no matter where you are.
If you haven't got a selection of traditional climbing protection, I'd start there if you are gung ho about clean aid, in caves or out of them. I heard that Fixe bought the rights to the old CCH alien design and are going to start selling them in the states this October. These are great units that you haven't been able to buy for some years now. Save your pennies. The BD C3's or Metolius' 3 cam units are both good as well.
And as far as hooks go you'll need an assortment of them as well in a variety of shapes. Get some cam hooks. You won't be sorry.
And as far as limestone breaking under the hooks, that can happen. The good thing about sandstone is you can just about file a divot with the point of a hook to set it in! :laughing:

I think the best way to practice is to get a weekday off and head down to the Red with a climbing partner and more trad gear than you think you'll ever need and get on some clean, moderate, lines with good protection. That way to won't be spending hours on a classic when there's a line of climbers waiting to get on. Pick something you could free climb out of if you needed to, so long as you are comfortable free climbing and placing protection. If you aren't, aid climbing is actually a great way to learn to use and trust the gear. A few routes that come to mind that are 5.10 or below (I think I remember most of the locations, but don't quote me)
Rock Wars (hands and fingers)/ Long Wall
Headstone Surfer(hands)/Funk Rock City
Cruising Lane (hands and fingers) / Funk Rock City
Rite of Passage (hands)/ Funk Rock City
Brontasaurus (hands) / Pebble Beach
Andromeda Strain (hands/thin hands) / Roadside Crag
Father and Son (fingers) / Lady Slipper
The Return of Geoff Beene (fingers) / Wester Sky Bridge Ridge
There are TONS more at or below 5.10 and even more once you get up past 5.10 free, but these are ones I've done, can suggest and think would also be good to learn aid on because of their consistent natures. Obviously because they are established free climbs and all of them classic lines ABSOLUTELY NO DRILLING or modifying holds WHATSOEVER. Period. Otherwise you will have some seriously pissed off climbers commin' for ya! But really, you won't have any trouble getting good solid, whipper worthy gear in all of these lines. I'm pretty sure they all have bolted anchors at the top as well, except Andromeda strain which has a tree.
Anyway like I said try not to practice aid on these on a weekend because people waiting to free climb them will give you the stink eye. However, you can also aid climb in the rain and/or winter when the population of the Red drops drastically with a lot more impunity.
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby chh » Aug 16, 2011 8:51 pm

One more thing, I got all excited about free routes you could do that I forgot to tell you to find a mentor. Someone to help you make it to the top of that learning curve! Especially if you don't have much trad experience. Take someone who will be able to evaluate your placements and anchors and such. I'm sure you know this but I had to say it.....
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby donniecs » Aug 18, 2011 10:34 pm

PeterFJohnson wrote:I am assuming since you are even thinking about clean aid that you come from a climbing background? Perhaps the books from that world is your best bet?

Not cave specific but Supertopo is the best source for big wall aid climbing on the internet. The biggest mistake I see people make on the rock and in caves is to resist the temptation to clip the the rope into the highest bolt/gear that your aider and cowtail/daisy chain is clipped into. There is no benefit and it lengthens your fall if the placement pulls. The other key is to get your "flow" down so that you can climb quick and efficiently.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby Extremeophile » Aug 19, 2011 9:53 am

I think in translating clean aid climbing above ground to under ground some of the intent is getting lost. While it's admirable to want to climb with the minimum possible impact, the impact of placing a bolt or piton during a dome climb that will presumably only be led once is fairly small. If a suitable "clean" placement is available then it will almost always be used in either situation because it's quicker / more efficient. Of course any placement needs to be tested (i.e. bounce tested) to determine its safety, and some reasonable balance between bomber and body-weight placements is needed for fall protection. Clean climbing has generally evolved above ground to limit the damage that is done to trade routes, not as a way to limit the impact from first ascents. Since repeat ascents underground are virtually unheard of, the priority should be to climb safely and efficiently regardless of whether you're using bolts, pins, nuts or cams.
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Re: Clean Aid Climbing In-Cave

Postby chh » Aug 19, 2011 12:08 pm

Extremeophile wrote:I think in translating clean aid climbing above ground to under ground some of the intent is getting lost. While it's admirable to want to climb with the minimum possible impact, the impact of placing a bolt or piton during a dome climb that will presumably only be led once is fairly small. If a suitable "clean" placement is available then it will almost always be used in either situation because it's quicker / more efficient. Of course any placement needs to be tested (i.e. bounce tested) to determine its safety, and some reasonable balance between bomber and body-weight placements is needed for fall protection. Clean climbing has generally evolved above ground to limit the damage that is done to trade routes, not as a way to limit the impact from first ascents. Since repeat ascents underground are virtually unheard of, the priority should be to climb safely and efficiently regardless of whether you're using bolts, pins, nuts or cams.


Yes.
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