Great video on cowstails

[paul]

As long as it doesn't cost anything (which it really doesn't) Second, have there been incidents from using non-lockers that has led people to believe that locking gates are needed? Is there a history of debate within the caving community around this, or do people just choose what feels "right"? Why are non-lockers good enough to take all sorts of dynamic lead falls in climbing, but people worry about using them (sometimes two at once) to catch a slip while clipped into a line or an anchor in a cave?

In rock climbing non-lockers are used for individual pieces of protection, but your safety depends on a protection "system", not on a single point. In a lead climb you hope that your last nut or cam will hold a leader fall, but you have additional protection in case something fails. At belays you equalize several anchors together, but whenever the connection is a single life-critical point then lockers are always used.

For ascending fixed ropes (e.g. vertical caving), it's common to have 2 ascenders, so there is some redundancy, but with only 2 points of contact, and no real need to disconnect from those asenders, I favor lockers. Crossing rebelays or on traverses, taking the time to lock a biner can slow you down, but I've found the autolockers are just as fast as non-lockers. I'm not comfortable in committing to one point of life-critical contact with a non-locker.

Actually in rock-climbing non-locking carabiners (or "snaplinks") are only used for running belays - where the rope is passing through as the climber climbs and the second afterwards, who removes them. Locking carabiners (or "screwgates") would be safer for runnning belays but you don't want to waste time unscrewing and screwing gate locks while actually climbing the route (- plus having to hang on and actually climb!) so non-locking carabiners are used. However, when belaying to anchors (i.e. when the leader has reached the top of the pitch and is belaying the second or when the leader is climbing and the second is doing the belaying), even in rock-climbing, locking carabiners (or "screwgates") are used.

There have been instances of a snaplink (non-locking carabiner) becoming unclipped from "P" shaped resined-in anchors when they are placed low (say right next to the lip of a drop) when the caver has been moving around - see http://www.cncc.org.uk/tg_warning.html.

Personally I use a locking carabiner on my long cowstail and a non-locking one on my short cowstail. I don't lock the carabiner during normal manouevres such as passing re-belays, changeovers, etc. in order to save time while moving up or down a pitch. But I do screw the carabiner up if clipped to an anchor and moving around a lot for example when hauling gear, etc. where the time saving of not locking the carabiner is negligible and there's a chance the carabiner could become unclipped. As Marduke says it's nice to have the option to lock a carabiner if you feel it would be useful.

As Sungura points out, European cavers use cowstails and don't know what a QAS is. I believe that is because we universally use the Frog setup for SRT and don't use long racks, if a rack is used at all. I believe the QAS is advantageous overe there in the States where other SRT setups are used and longer racks.

[paul]

Doing a traverse line in Oogf Ffynnon Ddu over there, people had just cowstails on belts instead of a full seat harness (well, Frank had a full seat harness but I think he was the only one). The cowstails I borrowed had nonlocking 'biners on it. I didn't notice anyone messing with locking them in that situation. Of course, I was slow and half freaked out to be so far above the river on a tiny slopped slippery ledge to pay much attention to others once I was on. I could well be wrong, but it seemed to me belt/webbing/few 'biners/cowstails was standard part of horizontal kit. And every "horizontal" cave I did needed those things, which was odd to me to always be doing traverse lines/climbs on belay (just 'cause of sketchiness or being in a waterfall and slippage possibilities being kinda high or something)/cable ladder climbs as part of a standard horizontal cave.

It's unusal for British cavers to have cowstails/harnesses in a predominantly horizontal cave. It is probably because it was known that a traverse equipped with a cable to hang on to was involved on that trip in OFD which caused the others to come prepared. Most cavers don't actually come so well-prepared and just hold onto the cable as they move along the ledge, which slopes towards the drop on one side.

There are other parts of the cave involving much riskier manouvres with nowhere to clip into even if you did come prepared with cowstails, etc.

In cases where short pitches are involved and cable caving ladders are used, then many cavers use what used to be called a "belay" belt (nylon webbing belt with a locking buckle) but because they have not got a CE Personal Protection Equipment mark are now termed "Lamp" belts (see http://www.inglesport.com/shop/product/1454/Gloves--Boots-and-Belts/Lyon-Roller-Buckle-Belt/) to clip the carabiner from a lifeline to while they are belayed during the ladder climb. Many cavers just wear a "Lamp" belt all the time. Ideally a caving sit harness would also be worn together with the "Lamp" belt but clipped together with a carabiner to bring the point of attachment up higher to prevent toppling over backwards while dangling on the lifeline if you were to fall of a cable ladder or a short climb on which a lifeline is used.

[self-deleted_user]

Ah ok. I just I just got some good prepared peeps leading trips (Les and Burt) I guess then :) (and yes, Les and...Darren? just did it w/o anything in OFD) Either that or just didn't want the visiting American falling and dying in a British cave xD Although that stupid belt never again, bringing my own webbing next time for a quickie diaper seat harness or something...I did fall off a cable ladder climbing the 20ft falls in Swildons...it worked but damn ouchie lower ribs and lower back for a few days and a lot of bruising from it.

[Extremeophile]

If your first placement fails on a lead climb you're going to hit the ground. Also, often times a single piece of protection failing higher up can equal serious injury. In any case, it's always the PRO the climber is worried about popping, not the carabiners.

There's always greater risk with the first placement on a climb and if you choose to run things out (aka long distance between placements), but your safety is still the combined result of the "system", i.e. placements, biners, direction of pull, belay anchor, belayer, etc. Climbers generally accept the risk of using non-lockers for first placements because of the difficulty of locking them, not because there's no risk in trusting a non-locker.

These two publications are referenced by cavers all over the world, including the US. I assume plenty of people are taking the non-locking carabiner advice to heart, in which case I would ask the perennial question - where is the trail of dead bodies? This isn't to say that anyone is wrong in choosing to go a different route. Personal safety is a very ...personal thing, and everyone's bound to have different opinions when it comes to things like this.

There's a lot of good technique advice in these two references. I've learned a lot by reading them, but I take the advice that is good and leave the advice that's bad. In this case they got it wrong.

[LukeM]

Sorry to keep this topic on carabiners and not the use of videos for instructing new vertical cavers but I just have a bit more relevant info to share before I give this a rest.

First - here's a thread from 2006 about this very subject. http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1960

Consensus seems mixed, with some using 2 lockers, some one of each type, and others using 2 non-lockers. Seems there's a bias toward lockers in the U.S. and a bias toward non-lockers elsewhere.

Jansen did post what he found in On Rope back then which was this:

Drawing shows a locking carabiner on the long cowstail, and a non-locking one on the short. Text states "two D shaped carabiners. If intended use is other than simple rebelay negotiation, a locking carabiner may be preferred. Europeans prefer non-locking because they are fast and easy to operate."

Also, Ian Mckenzie brought something up that I think is important when considering the use of lockers which is this: if you are using a locker, but not locking it in certain situations, you're actually increasing the ability of objects in the environment to engage the gate because of the protruding locker sleeve.

[Stridergdm]

I think there may be some value to videos such as this but the problem is who oks them.

As is evident from this thread alone, there's already a huge discussion on what's 'correct'. So while there may be no "cost" to linking from the NSS page, there is a cost of time for the folks who review the videos and decide to link to them. This isn't always as easy as one might think.

Now, personally, I prefer non-locking. I find I was spending too much time fiddling with the locks and having cases where the lock was catching the gate in an open position.

I also would quibble with the length of his tails on his knots. In my opinion, those are excessively long.

[self-deleted_user]

That's a good point...but I think peeps could agree at least it is *safe* what he made and how he made it and from what he used to make it. I don't think variances and personal preferences could ever be fully covered, but a stable base is important. I mean....whatyoulikebest =/= theonlythingthatissafe necessarily, ya know?

[chh]

I also would quibble with the length of his tails on his knots. In my opinion, those are excessively long.

Me too. Then it got me thinking, under what crazy circumstance would it be advantageous to put an ascender on the tail of the barrell knot on a cowstail. I couldn't come up with one.
Consequently I've always heard 4-5 times the diameter of the rope is plenty and I know for a fact less than that will hold, even in high mod fiber, and dressed with, say, a 2000 lb winch

And FWIW I use 2 lockers. The option (rare as it may be) to use a single cowstail into an anchor and work around without worrying about it is worth it to me though I would say that it's entirely personal choice.

[Chads93GT]

I also would quibble with the length of his tails on his knots. In my opinion, those are excessively long.

Me too. Then it got me thinking, under what crazy circumstance would it be advantageous to put an ascender on the tail of the barrell knot on a cowstail. I couldn't come up with one.
Consequently I've always heard 4-5 times the diameter of the rope is plenty and I know for a fact less than that will hold, even in high mod fiber, and dressed with, say, a 2000 lb winch

And FWIW I use 2 lockers. The option (rare as it may be) to use a single cowstail into an anchor and work around without worrying about it is worth it to me though I would say that it's entirely personal choice.

didn't he say at the end of the video that he would cut them off and melt the ends down???

[Stridergdm]

I also would quibble with the length of his tails on his knots. In my opinion, those are excessively long.

Me too. Then it got me thinking, under what crazy circumstance would it be advantageous to put an ascender on the tail of the barrell knot on a cowstail. I couldn't come up with one.
Consequently I've always heard 4-5 times the diameter of the rope is plenty and I know for a fact less than that will hold, even in high mod fiber, and dressed with, say, a 2000 lb winch

And FWIW I use 2 lockers. The option (rare as it may be) to use a single cowstail into an anchor and work around without worrying about it is worth it to me though I would say that it's entirely personal choice.

didn't he say at the end of the video that he would cut them off and melt the ends down???

He said that about the long cowstail. The short one he said something about making it 10 rope widths long or something like that. (I thought. Honestly, not going to go back and watch right now