rope warning fake climbing rope

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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby pub » Jun 23, 2011 8:36 pm

NZcaver wrote:I don't agree it's a "non issue." If this topic educates even one person, it was worth Steve posting it.
Exactly! The experience of those reading cavechat vary from Spelunker Sam to Beginner Ben to Elitist Edward.

cavedoc wrote:Buy from a reputable dealer… In the cave... Some paranoia about ropes you find in caves is justified… If you can cut off a few inches you can see who really made somehting.
The precautions of Roger are good but the final decision to use a questionable rope or rigging lies with each of us.

For example, we ran across questionable ropes during a trip sponsored by the municipal government of a town wanting to introduce its caves to regional tour agencies. The cave guides’ ropes were very spongy, about 20mm in diameter with multi-colored fibers twisted in varying diameter bundles for the core and a sheath was broken in places exposing the core.

Half of the group declined to use the rope for the 2nd drop of the 1st cave. For the 2nd cave, the rope was rigged in the middle and both ends were dropped into the two separate entrances. The whole group used the rope except me so I was able to take these photos.

Image

Image

rlboyce wrote:What do you do if you are unable to perform one of these unnecessary checks? Don't chance it, turn around and go home?
For me, YEP! We need to decide for ourselves and be aware there are wolves in sheep’s clothing that can bite us unexpectedly… don’t be a sitting duck.

Another time I decided not to drop a pit was ON VINE! Exploring Sison, Pangasinan caves.
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby Stridergdm » Jun 23, 2011 10:38 pm

cavedoc wrote:
rlboyce wrote:So what's the general recommendation then?


Buy from a reputable dealer? If a deal is too good to be true, it's probably not? Look to see who the manufacturer is (allegedly). In this case the rope is dressed as reputable rope but at least it's not labeled as such.

In the cave...boy, that's harder. Easy to say you should get the beta on what ropes are fixed and who put them in but that's not always realistic. And who's to say that someone hasn't changed them out. Some paranoia about ropes you find in caves is justified.

PMI ropes (maybe others too, I don't know) have a tracer inside them with year of manufacturer. If you can cut off a few inches you can see who really made somehting. If you find paper or wool yarn in the process then you already have your answer.


As others have heard me relate, a few years back a group of us were in Ellisons, going up the nuisance drop and noticed the rope was in bad shape. On the way out, I rappelled down and the sheath came apart. While hanging there, thinking about what to do, the thought did cross my mind that I should look for the tracer. But I figured getting an ascender attached above the fray was probably my first order of business. (And for the record it was PMI rope, but no, I don't personally know who put it there originally. And yes, it has since been replaced. ;-)

(and yes, I believe all UIAA ropes have that tracer.
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby jsteve068 » Jun 24, 2011 12:50 pm

Thanks for all of you that posted something positive on this.
only real sign without cutting is that it flattens outs if you bend it a lot , due to not having
twisted cords . off topic pics same hole after a few trips over 100 ft
Image

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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby caverdan » Jun 25, 2011 7:19 pm

pub wrote:[Image

Image



Our convention staff just bought a bunch of rope that looks just like this. :yikes: :shrug:



We used it to make the center pieces for the banquet tables. :toast: It sure is pretty rope. :big grin: :wink:
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby pub » Jun 25, 2011 11:14 pm

caverdan wrote:Our convention staff just bought a bunch of rope that looks just like this. We used it to make the center pieces for the banquet tables. It sure is pretty rope.

Hmmm... I don't know if the innards of a caving rope are shown during the vertical workshop but a piece of the banquet table rope and a good rope can be shown side-by-side with their core exposed as a demo during the vertical workshop. Then they can show what to look for and what a tracer tape looks like. :waving:
Image
Photo by Rawen Balmaña
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby Jon » Jul 22, 2011 6:58 pm

Unknown rope, not sure? GO HOME! That is unless you like stokes litter rides or body bag rides. Never borrow safety equipment or underwear. The only that scares me more than unknown safety equipment is someone stating that they are from the government and that they are there to help me.
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby NZcaver » Jul 26, 2011 1:41 am

caverdan wrote:Our convention staff just bought a bunch of rope that looks just like [the "fake rope" photos posted by Pub].

We used it to make the center pieces for the banquet tables. It sure is pretty rope.

I requisitioned a piece of that rope at the banquet, and sliced off one melted end to expose the PAPER core. :yikes: It's about 9mm in diameter, and came in yellow and red versions.

For what it's worth, to me this is clearly not climbing rope/cord BUT I can understand how an inexperienced person might assume it is genuine. The weave of the outer sheath is slightly softer and looser than the average kernmantle rope/cord, and the pattern is a little different too. It's super flexible compared with regular rope/cord, but apart from that it does have a reasonably solid-feeling core (of paper).

There was a young teenage caver(?) going around the tables collecting the pieces of rope after the banquet. I hope he doesn't try using them for Prusik loops or other critical applications.

Image
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby pub » Jul 26, 2011 3:42 am

Thanks for the follow-up report Jansen. :clap:

I suspect that the one in your photo (PAPER core) and the OP's (blue paper towel) wouldn't last long after a couple soakings. :rofl:
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby wyandottecaver » Jul 27, 2011 6:58 pm

The stuff at our Orschelins was a near dead-ringer for PMI EZ-Bend. I too have seen the sorta-kinda like static rope, but I've also seen the dang thats scary similiar stuff. I need to actually buy some next time I see it just to show how close it is.
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby self-deleted_user » Jul 27, 2011 7:33 pm

pub wrote:
caverdan wrote:Our convention staff just bought a bunch of rope that looks just like this. We used it to make the center pieces for the banquet tables. It sure is pretty rope.

Hmmm... I don't know if the innards of a caving rope are shown during the vertical workshop but a piece of the banquet table rope and a good rope can be shown side-by-side with their core exposed as a demo during the vertical workshop. Then they can show what to look for and what a tracer tape looks like. :waving:
Image
Photo by Rawen Balmaña

Thanks for the photo, I was about to ask what a "tracer" was =) For some reason my mind went to some form of luminescence color coding, but then I quickly dismissed that because I figured who has the time to make code from various luminescent colours and then memorize them, haha.

Okay so how would you see a tracer then, though? I mean, it's not like you want to chop rope up all the time to check it. I'm failing to see how it's helpful until /after/ it breaks, which, is hopefully rare for real climbing rope, and if it happens, rather late to know if it has one or not, yes?
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby gdstorrick » Jul 27, 2011 9:18 pm

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Last edited by gdstorrick on Jul 8, 2012 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby NZcaver » Jul 27, 2011 9:43 pm

gdstorrick wrote:
NZcaver wrote:I requisitioned a piece of that rope at the banquet, and sliced off one melted end to expose the PAPER core.


Didn't I just buy a descender from you :big grin: :big grin: :big grin: :big grin: :yikes: :big grin: :big grin: :big grin: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ?

Why yes, you did. :waving: But don't worry - it's 100% tin foil, shiny plastic, and gold paint with suspicious Chinese-Slovenian engraved markings. No paper anywhere, except for the broken-English instructions and the manufacturer warranty which is valid for exactly 12 seconds. While we conducted our brief business transaction in the convention cafeteria, the instructions/warranty expired and self-disintegrated. :tonguecheek:

Incidentally, I still have your check but won't be able to deposit it for another few weeks. I have to drive over a thousand miles to the nearest branch of my bank. Hopefully it won't disintegrate en route. :big grin:
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby snoboy » Jul 28, 2011 12:30 am

Sungura wrote:Okay so how would you see a tracer then, though? I mean, it's not like you want to chop rope up all the time to check it. I'm failing to see how it's helpful until /after/ it breaks, which, is hopefully rare for real climbing rope, and if it happens, rather late to know if it has one or not, yes?


Amy, the most common way I look at the tracer is to lop the very end off, and pull the sheath back, then milk the sheath over the core again, and recut the end even and melt it. I usually only lose 6" or so of rope if I do this carefully.

I've had to do this a few times recently. Once was when I inherited the job of looking after a rescue gear cache, but had no idea what age the ropes were. A few weeks ago at work there was some rope that I knew the history of but not the age or manufacturer. It was offered to me as a freebie - quick read of the tracer and I can now look up the specs of my (basically new) rope and I know how old it is. Of course once you do this once, you give it an ID number and you can record pertinent details elsewhere.
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby KD5NRH » Dec 13, 2011 2:36 pm

Anonymous_Coward wrote:He is not worried that smug, elite cavers like yourself are going to run out to the hardware store and buy some of this. The danger lies in the fact that it looks and feels like static cave rope. If you came across this as a rigged line in a cave, you might not be able to tell the difference. That, or your buddy that is not as smart as you brings some of this along on a cave trip. If it really looks and feels like the real thing, you could use this in a SRT situation without knowing it.\


There's also the possibility that people keep several types of rope around for different uses. I'm not using good static rope to tie down a load in the truck, for example. While common sense would generally dictate making sure to get different colors/patterns, one might not always have the choice or might get a good deal on a climbing rope in the same pattern as their utility rope. It would be bad to get them mixed up, so it's a good idea to remind folks of the risk.
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Re: rope warning fake climbing rope

Postby KD5NRH » Dec 13, 2011 2:41 pm

pub wrote:Image


Looks like great stuff; when you're stuck at the bottom of a drop, you can use the core to knit yourself some pretty mittens.
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