Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby Chads93GT » Jun 22, 2011 11:01 am

chh wrote:I would also argue that an Omni user could probably just pop the croll off as fast or faster than undoing a little screw link inbetween the half-round and the croll


Bingo. 2 1/2 twists of the gate and my harness is off. Besides, if the crawl is truely tight, why not just remove your harness? why you would want to subject your life support system to unnecessary abrasion is beyond me.

some of these what if scenarios in this thread are killing me. lol
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby Tubo Longo » Jun 22, 2011 11:29 pm

Jansen, I stand to partially correct myself. I was a bit in a hurry when I answered your post and got side tracked by the second half of it. You got it in part right, the small maillon get added below the Croll. But not to disconnect it from the chest harness, that won't make any sense: to disconnect it from the lower (or seat, if you'd prefer) harness, without having to open/close every time the screw link (or D-link or Maillon Rapide whatever you'd like to call it).
As you well know and correctly point out, there're a number of possible solutions to either loosen up the chest harness and/or disconnect the Croll from it.

Chh, this tech is of course only used in those caves I described: otherwise I agree is un-necessary. You however point to two different scenario: the use of Omni and the climbing only situation. In Italy at least Omni is not well considered, as far as I know, to close the seat harness, mainly for two reasons: is made of alloy and is basically a biner. The Maillon Rapide comes also in steel, which is considered (there) THE choice for any serious caver, being steel considered better than alloy. Then, being a biner and as any biner, the Omni has a possible very weak point, the pin. A weak point that isn't present in the Maillon Rapide.

To be clear, it's NOT my intention to open a thread on the Omni, I'm just reporting what the situation is, as I know it, in the Italian caving scene. Not to say that nobody use alloy Maillon or Omni: but for an hard core caver those aren't choice. As a matter of fact I'm not aware of any caver I know using them.

So said, nobody like the idea to continuosly screw open/close the Maillon Rapide at every darn pit of a cold, alpine, vertical cave, which could be several hundred meters deep: exp. if you could find yourself in a position where a visual inspection of the maillon may be hard if not possible at all. Like a tight crevasse that opens up in a pit. As I wrote in the other post, please consider that any caver in Italy wear the Croll even while rappelling, just in case. So if grueling tight passages are present between pits, the Croll will be removed both on the way in and out of the cave.
Why bother not to open directly the lower harness? Because that's where usually cave packs are hanging or being towed from. So nobody wants to open the harness when yours pack(s) is hanging from it and you're, for example, at the end of a vertical crevasse, right where it opens up into a pit..
That's also why, Chads93GT, cavers there completely remove the harness only in extreme situation
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby NZcaver » Jun 23, 2011 1:00 am

Renato - my previous question still stands.

Can't you achieve the same thing by disconnecting your Croll at the top (detaching it from your chest harness) instead of at the bottom (detaching it from your seat harness)? Why would the Croll need to stay connected to your chest harness? Leaving it connected to your harness D-link still allows you to maneuver tight spaces more easily where you're not on rope, right? And you wouldn't need to undo the D link holding your harness together and supporting your hanging cave pack. Sounds like a win-win to me, although personally I prefer using a chest harness I can simply loosen with one hand without undoing anything.

Speaking of the Omni... sure, some people like them and some people dislike/distrust them. That's to be expected. Personally I started using one in 2005 and I've been very happy with it. Previously I used a Zicral Maillon Rapide (never a steel one) for 15 years, so no change in material for me. Zicral is lighter and perfectly strong/suitable enough for the job. And the Omni action is very convenient. Yes it's a carabiner, but unlike other carabiners it's rated for 3-way loading (20kN each direction) AND for outward loading directly onto the gate (15kN). This is no ordinary carabiner gate. Previous Omni discussions can be found here and here.
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby Tubo Longo » Jun 23, 2011 2:55 am

Jansen, if you disconnect the Croll from the top only then it dangle free from the D-link, right? In a tight passage that free hanging is WAY more than a pain in the neck, trust me, not at all allowing a more easily maneuvering as you may think. That's why you'd want to disconnected it from the bottom. To tell the truth, once we disconnected the Croll from the bottom we were usually putting it away in our personal pack, not leaving it dangling from the top (chest) harness. About the chest harness, I also use one that I can loosen with one hand, as most of the (Italian) cavers I know.

About the Omni, it isn't an ordinary biner for sure. But is a biner. And a lot of Italian cavers apparentely don't trust it much compared with a Maillon Rapide, exp. a steel one. As for the alloy vs steel, I can only report that it has been a number of case in the past where the alloy gate got a bit deformed under heavy load (like the pick-off of a heavy caver): that small deformation was enough to make it harder to screw/unscrew the gate. I don't have any news about any recent occuring of this issue, but the past ones got enough bad rap that a lot of cavers prefer to use the steel.
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby paul » Jun 23, 2011 3:29 am

Tubo Longo wrote:About the Omni, it isn't an ordinary biner for sure. But is a biner. And a lot of Italian cavers apparentely don't trust it much compared with a Maillon Rapide, exp. a steel one. As for the alloy vs steel, I can only report that it has been a number of case in the past where the alloy gate got a bit deformed under heavy load (like the pick-off of a heavy caver): that small deformation was enough to make it harder to screw/unscrew the gate. I don't have any news about any recent occuring of this issue, but the past ones got enough bad rap that a lot of cavers prefer to use the steel.


From a UK perspective, the vast majority of cavers use steel "D" shaped 10mm Maillons to connect the sit harness - I've never seen anyone with an Omni but I'm sure that some cavers probably do use one.

Regarding the alloy vs. steel choice for the "D" shaped Maillon: I tried a couple of caving shops a few years ago to see if I could get an alloy 10mm "D" shaped Maillon and was told they only sell the steel version. This is because the alloy versions were too easily deformed - probably while putting the harness on and bending, etc. before doing up the screw. So, I've stuck with the steel version.
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby LukeM » Jun 23, 2011 8:14 am

paul wrote:Regarding the alloy vs. steel choice for the "D" shaped Maillon: I tried a couple of caving shops a few years ago to see if I could get an alloy 10mm "D" shaped Maillon and was told they only sell the steel version. This is because the alloy versions were too easily deformed - probably while putting the harness on and bending, etc. before doing up the screw. So, I've stuck with the steel version.


Huh, I was under the impression that it's fairly common for steel D-links to deform. I've definitely seen more than one steel Maillon deform to the point of being difficult/unable to screw closed. I though aluminum alloy was the less plastic material.
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby Scott McCrea » Jun 23, 2011 8:35 am

The Petzl Omni is vastly superior, IMO. It is better in every way. Name a way, any way and the Omni will do it better.
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby chh » Jun 23, 2011 9:32 am

Scott McCrea wrote:The Petzl Omni is vastly superior, IMO. It is better in every way. Name a way, any way and the Omni will do it better.


Have to pee........really really bad? Petzl Omni.
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
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Re: Had a problem with my frogging system, any ideas?

Postby Chads93GT » Jun 23, 2011 9:46 am

I love my petzl omni. I like how I dont need a wrench handy if i am in a gritty cave.

and if you can bend a steel maillion by simply putting on your harness, you may want to enter the strong man competition.
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