Frog system

[fuzzy-hair-man]

2. ...Anyway either due to bad technique or whatever, as my arms tired I found it easier to put my left hand on the hand ascender and use my right hand to grasp the rope above the hand ascender and pull myself in towards the rope.

This action of you let me think that you might have some other side problems. Like: harnesses not properly regulated to fit you (too loose?); Croll too high and/or too far away from the chest (see above); improper feet push, i.e. not backward but directed in front of you; safety belay of hand-ascender too long. It might be just one of the above or some of them together. For example, an arm shouldn't be at full extension when climbing, but slightly bended.
We must remember that the Frog system calls for a very careful tuning of both all the gear involved AND our climbing tech as well. Or we'll end up with a rather uncomfortable and miserable climbing system.

I think these probably contributed it is a new harness and I am having a bit of trouble getting it as tight as I'm used to, which means the D maillion is further up. This possibly also meant my chest harness was less effective.
What I meant is as I got more tired (and probably my technique got worse) I seemed to want to grip the ascension with my left hand and use my right hand to grip further up the rope. The rope attaching my hand ascender wasn't long enough to let this happen(nor should it be) hence the tendency to swap hands, I also suspect this was probably just an attempt to use different muscles.

Or connect it with a lock (parallel) biner directly to the harness right loop (assuming you use a caving harness). This way it will be on your right side but so far away from the Croll that it won't bother/interfere with it and its cam in any way.

This is probably what I'll try next.

On the other hand I absolutely agree that a right handed hand ascender is more intuitive and less error prone for learners.

Unless you are a lefty may be.
Intuitive, IMO, should be the tech you use: if you get used and trained on using a left hand-ascender, even if you're not a lefty, then you'll minimize the changes of mistakes. But here we're again talking about training...

Yes I mean for right handers
And yes the petzl plunge phenomenon(reason for double stops) is an illustration of how hard it can be to override a learned or instinctual behavior, best to design with human nature in mind.

I enjoy refining and experimenting with my setup (in a controlled environment of course) I also think it helps develop an understanding that will be useful in a cave should something go wrong or an unexpected situation arise. Just points I was thinking about, nothing more

[Tubo Longo]

I think these probably contributed it is a new harness and I am having a bit of trouble getting it as tight as I'm used to, which means the D maillion is further up. This possibly also meant my chest harness was less effective.
What I meant is as I got more tired (and probably my technique got worse) I seemed to want to grip the ascension with my left hand and use my right hand to grip further up the rope. The rope attaching my hand ascender wasn't long enough to let this happen(nor should it be) hence the tendency to swap hands, I also suspect this was probably just an attempt to use different muscles.

For sure a loosely tight seat harness will position the croll higher (like happen to you) and far away from the body: it can get to the point it's almost impossible to have it close to the body while suspended. This will cause both a very ineffective climbing movement (way shorter) and put a lot of additional stress on the torso and the shoulders since you'll try to close the gap by getting closer to the rope. Hence your grip to the rope, a natural reaction.

By your description I also suspect your safety cord (to the hand ascender) might be too short too. Proper length is such that - while standing fully geared up for climbing - the rope will go on tension while your arm is still slightly bended (so that you could easily reach for the handle should you be left hanging only from the handle ascender).
The foot loop correct length is measured - standing in the same position described above - with it being on tension while hand ascender and Croll are cam-to-cam and your foot (or feet, depends on your habit) is/are into the loop.
This at least is what's being taught in Italy.
An improper length of either the foot loop or the safety rope (not to mention of both) could be enough reason for a miserable climbing tech and loads of extra tiredness.

I enjoy refining and experimenting with my setup (in a controlled environment of course) I also think it helps develop an understanding that will be useful in a cave should something go wrong or an unexpected situation arise. Just points I was thinking about, nothing more

I cannot agree more with this statement

[paul]

An improper length of either the foot loop or the safety rope (not to mention of both) could be enough reason for a miserable climbing tech and loads of extra tiredness.

Plus making manoeuvres such as passing knots and rescue assistance difficult.

[JamesCrouch]

well for me, simply from a mechanical point of view:

The Left handed upper ascender is safer. Remember when you are 110 feet from the top and 110 from the bottom and you run into problems...the less you have to do to get out of trouble the better.

Certainly the idea is to have the system tuned in such a way that the two ascenders won't come into contact. The what ifs are what will get you...

I figure there have been more people who have gotten into trouble one way then another. When a pattern develops folk tend to pass that information along. What you decide to do with the information is all on you.

[NZcaver]

well for me, simply from a mechanical point of view:

The Left handed upper ascender is safer.

With all due respect - from a mechanical point of view or not - that statement seems to be a fallacy perpetuated by a very, very tiny minority of the world's frogging cavers (just a handful of Americans, from what I can tell). If you haven't already done so, read this thread from the beginning. Then if you have some concrete evidence to present in support of your statement, by all means share it with us.

I figure there have been more people who have gotten into trouble one way then another. When a pattern develops folk tend to pass that information along. What you decide to do with the information is all on you.

Interesting idea, but do you actually have any statistics on this? Is there real-world pattern of problems that have occurred, or does this just stem from pure conjecture? As the saying goes, "show us the trail of dead bodies" (or accident/incident reports)...

[JamesCrouch]

I should have slanted my statement more in the direction of general reading of various sources and trial and error for my own use. I did not intend to present a persuasive point of view just another personal one.

This is just intriguing enough to do some more experimenting. I am going to enlist some buddies to help me whilst I purposely jam my ascenders together on rope. I have not been over a lip in two years due to some surgery. I have been having the kids belay me from the attic truss the past few weeks.

[NZcaver]

Cool! I'd be really interested to hear your results.

As you may have read earlier in the thread, I spent some time experimenting with jamming my ascenders together a few years back after I first learned of this apparent issue (I've been frogging since the late 80's). I also spoke with a variety of other cavers on the subject, and of course solicited responses here on cavechat. If you can, please post some photos and/or video clip links too.

[kmstill]

I've been reviewing the thread and have a quick comment.
When I first set up my frog, I had a right handled ascender on the footloop and a lefty as my (extra) "QAS". Why - who knows exactly why, probably because I stored my "QAS" on the left so intuitively it made more sense. also, back then, when I was doing changeovers I would routinely use the (extra) "QAS" and it was convienient to manuver that ascender w/ my left hand during changeovers. For climbing, I'd have my right ascender cross behind the rope from the left of the croll to grab the rope, so that the front faced me, grab the handle w/ my right hand, and around the top back of the ascender w/ my left. worked well for me for a long time.

When I re-tweaked my system this summer, I swapped the ascenders. Why- I usually do changovers now without the extra ascender, and it's more efficient w/ the left ascender on the footloop. also, just got a pantin and expect that to work better w/ the foot ascender on the left (though likely not a significant difference). Have had no trouble climbing w/ the change, but I do worry a bit that if I'm in a position to actually need that third ascender, maniupuating a right ascender stored on my left side may be a bit more difficult.
k

[hank moon]

Cool! I'd be really interested to hear your results.

Ditto!