Frog system

[Eric]

I am currently using PMI pit rope for my QAS and my foot loop of my frog and I was thinking about changing to a 6mm or 8mm accessory cord for the attachment. What does everyone else use and does anyone have any in site to problems that might arise from doing this?

[David_Campen]

I am using 7 mm Bluewater prussic cord to my upper ascender/QAS. The downside is that your safety factor is much less and if the cord gets partially cut by abrasion ...

Of course, once when I was getting on rope for a 300 ft. climb, someone commented on the non-locking biner that I was using to attach the 7 mm cord to the ascender.

[NZcaver]

I am currently using PMI pit rope for my QAS and my foot loop of my frog and I was thinking about changing to a 6mm or 8mm accessory cord for the attachment. What does everyone else use and does anyone have any in site to problems that might arise from doing this?

Hi Eric - you should probably read this thread http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=282

When you say QAS, do you mean the upper ascender of your frog system, or a separate "third" ascender? Either way, you might want to avoid using static rope or static accessory cord for any connection that has the potential of arresting a fall. Personally I use a length of 9.7mm PMI dynamic rope for my cowstails, and some 5.5mm spectra cord for my footloops.



As for David and his non-locking carabiner - yep, that's what I use too. So long as it's oriented correctly, you shouldn't have a problem. I have mine set up so the rope is pretty well "captured" at the lower end of the carabiner, and I make a practice of checking my rig before, during and after each use.

[jmo]

Eric, I use Dyneema and spectra runners for the footloop and the backup line on my frog system. I have used nylon runners as well. they seem to work like a charm!

[hank moon]

Eric, I use Dyneema and spectra runners for the footloop and the backup line on my frog system. I have used nylon runners as well. they seem to work like a charm!

I hope this as a joke

A knowledgeable, safety-minded caver would not use Dyneema or Spectra runners for the lanyard between the upper ascender and the harness. Eric, if you are unsure about this point, read the article that Scott linked earlier in this thread. Static sewn runners made from Dyneema, Spectra, nylon, polyester (or any other fiber) are NOT suitable for a backup lanyard.

[David_Campen]

I think that the link you are referring to is in this thread:
http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=282

[hank moon]

I think that the link you are referring to is in this thread:
http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=282

Whoops! You are right - and here's the link Scott posted in that thread:

ARTICLE LINK

[jmo]

I hope this as a joke

A knowledgeable, safety-minded caver would not use Dyneema or Spectra runners for the lanyard between the upper ascender and the harness. Eric, if you are unsure about this point, read the article that Scott linked earlier in this thread. Static sewn runners made from Dyneema, Spectra, nylon, polyester (or any other fiber) are NOT suitable for a backup lanyard.

Hank - Have you ever used an 10mm or 12mm dyneema or spectra runner? I have used them many times, and they have never frayed or shown any sings of wear at all. The weight these thing can safely hold in amazing. Also why not nylon runners as well? They are strong and they even stretch when shock loaded. I’m a little confused, in the article you linked in the above post, it clearly states in the Points to Remember section “Mix up nylon and spectra slings, using the more dynamic nylon slings on protection at the beginning of pitches, where fall factors can be highest.â€

[reece]

[quote="jmo"]
Hank - Have you ever used an 10mm or 12mm dyneema or spectra runner? I have used them many times, and they have never frayed or shown any sings of wear at all. The weight these thing can safely hold in amazing. Also why not nylon runners as well? They are strong and they even stretch when shock loaded. I’m a little confused, in the article you linked in the above post, it clearly states in the Points to Remember section “Mix up nylon and spectra slings, using the more dynamic nylon slings on protection at the beginning of pitches, where fall factors can be highest.â€

[hank moon]

remember that caving and climbing are inherently different. climbers EXPECT to fall, hence the use of dynamic rope. the slings that connect the protection to the rope take the load, while the rope itself absorbs shock impact.

JMO, Reece pretty much nailed it. Every rock climbing safety system has at its heart a dynamic rope - a very good shock absorber. There is no such absorber in most America SRT systems. Falling onto a spectra lanyard is potentially dangerous. Why not use something with a little shock absorption? A short length of suitable dynamic rope, properly knotted, makes a great upper ascender connection (or cowstails). Check out an earlier discussion for more info:

http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=282

[jmo]

Thanks for the info Reece and Hank! I appreciate it!

[Eric]

Thanks everyone for the good advise! I really appreciate it also.


Eric

[Adam Byrd]

Alright, while we're talking about the frog system, I'll throw this out there for discussion.

In my frog rig I use a right handed Petzl as an upper ascender. I know that you're supposed to use a left handed one because the right handed ascender can jam into the croll, leaving you in a less than desirable situation.

I've never had this happen, and I've even tried (above ground under controlled conditions). Anyone who's actually seen this happen care to explain how they can get locked together?

[speloman]

never happend to me I use a right handed asender as a upper too.

[NZcaver]

...In my frog rig I use a right handed Petzl as an upper ascender. I know that you're supposed to use a left handed one because the right handed ascender can jam into the croll, leaving you in a less than desirable situation.

I've never had this happen, and I've even tried (above ground under controlled conditions). Anyone who's actually seen this happen care to explain how they can get locked together?

Adam - in my (ever so humble) opinion, this fallacy is complete BS. The following is an extract from an article I submitted to my grotto newsletter a while ago...

It seems many right-handed vertical cavers have been persuaded into using left-handed ascenders with their Frog systems. They've been told its "dangerous" to use a right-handed Petzl Ascension in conjunction with a chest Croll. In my opinion, this is a misleading statement.

The main argument condemning the right-handed Ascension is that jamming the Croll up against it means not being able to access either cam. Simply lifting the feet up will allow the Ascension to be pushed up the rope, making both cams easily accessible. However, if the Ascension is jammed against something that stops it being pushed up, and the Croll is jammed against the Ascension, the cams will be difficult to open anyway - regardless of which ascender is used. You need to lift an ascender up slightly in order to move the cam. To thumb the cam when a right-handed Ascension is "in the way", simply reach through the handle. Of course, it's better to avoid this situation completely by looking where you're going, and by adjusting your system correctly so you don't vigorously jam the two ascenders together when you climb.

Personally, I continue to advise new vertical cavers to start with whichever handled ascender suits their dexterity. And if that doesn't feel right, they can try the other one. I believe if you're using a Frog system and you're comfortable with it - leave it alone! I have spoken with several right-handers who use left-handed ascenders because it feels more natural. That's fine! Just don't dismiss the right-handed ascender for the wrong reasons. Each year, the Petzl catalog continues to show the Frog system using a right-handed Ascension with a Croll. And over the past two decades, my Frog system has undergone many changes - but it still has a right-handed ascender.


>>>If someone has a different insight into this issue - debate away!