Frog system

[NZcaver]

Although... technically all Petzl Basics have right-handed cams, so I guess the pro-lefties lose again....

If I had known how much emotional investment you had in the outcome of this discussion I might have not gotten involved. It wasn't my intent to cause you so much emotional distress. Sorry. You win.

Actually, I was just making the tone of our discussion a little lighter - in case it was upsetting YOU too much... Sorry - my bad.

As Ian pointed out, these discussions are more about airing different points of views - rather than just "winning" per se. No emotional distress here, just a desire to speak the Truth about both ascenders being created (and used) equally.

So tell me - have you tried doing up-to-down changeovers with your 6-bar rack, using an extra QAS like I mentioned? I'm interested to know how you feel about that...

[hank moon]

post deleted by author

[Scott McCrea]

Using an ascender with the wrong hand is, well, wrong. Doing so can get one in trouble. That's why I believe very proficient vertical cavers carry one of each.

[NZcaver]

THIS INCIDENT in which an beginner-in-training was using a left-hand Petzl ASCENSION with his right hand might be a reason. What do you think?

Using an ascender with the wrong hand is, well, wrong. Doing so can get one in trouble.

Snap! I just posted a reply on the same subject here - http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... ght=#12797

[Tubo Longo]

THIS INCIDENT in which an beginner-in-training was using a left-hand Petzl ASCENSION with his right hand might be a reason. What do you think?

Using an ascender with the wrong hand is, well, wrong. Doing so can get one in trouble.

Snap! I just posted a reply on the same subject here - http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... ght=#12797

I would also add that the beginner-in-training wasn't apparently much supervised, not for what we can read and not to my standard at least.
I've been thaught to always use two ropes, side by side, while training beginners: one for them and one for the instructor, who have to closely follow up the beginner, so to could check (and correct, if the need arise) the mistake(s) the beginner might do.
Reading the report, there's no second rope, no instructor side-by-side to oversee, nobody to correct the beginners from either the top or the bottom about its improper - if not unsafe - climbing position (quote: "Climber is using right hand in handle of upper ascender to push the ascender up."), nobody on the lips to supervise him and his technique while dealing with the lip, a critical moment in itself.

I agree that a piece of gear shouldn't disengage by itself: but since vertical caving is a dangerous activity, I don't pretend the gear to be bomb-fool-proof as may be somebody else would like and/or pretend. Proper supervised training and again training and again training and again training should be essential part of vertical caving, so to allow everybody to grown up enough expertise to properly deal with (and survive) ropes and drops. Sorry but (in my opinion and experience, of course) I don't see it it happened here, since none of the above precautions is quoted in Bonnie's report.

If a beginners is left almost alone, do we then seriously pretend no mistakes? Do we seriously pretend a piece of gear doing what an instructor should do, i.e. to correct the mistakes of a beginner? I say NO.

Cheers -- Renato


PS that huge rubber protusion, let's not forget, is there to help climbers and professional rope workers, not cavers: that's why we might fing it comfortable on the chest ascender but unsafe on the upper one. But that's not a problem, apparently, for the other above mentioned users.

[NZcaver]

I would also add that the beginner-in-training wasn't apparently much supervised, not for what we can read and not to my standard at least.

From what I read in that incident report, I would tend to agree.

I've been taught to always use two ropes, side by side, while training beginners: one for them and one for the instructor, who have to closely follow up the beginner, so to could check (and correct, if the need arise) the mistake(s) the beginner might do.

Me too - for outdoor (above-ground) rappelling/rope climbing practice. It's often not practical to do it that way underground, but the vertical 'newbie' should be somewhat trained by that stage. Another alternative is to train in a climbing gym or outside using a tree, and rig the rope through a pulley and down to a releasable point (locked descender) at ground level. Makes it real easy to lower someone if they get in trouble - plus you can "treadmill" them to get more distance.

If a beginners is left almost alone, do we then seriously pretend no mistakes? Do we seriously pretend a piece of gear doing what an instructor should do, i.e. to correct the mistakes of a beginner? I say NO.

[Dwight Livingston]

This past Sunday morning, climbing out of the entance pit of Hellhole, I found my Croll had misbehaved, just as described in the previous posts. I had stopped in the upper section of the pit, standing on a ledge and leaning forward against the wall. After a short breather, I raised my foot loops, stood, and tried to sit. The croll didn't grab, so I shifted my weight, trying to help it catch. When that didn't work, I looked down and saw the Croll latched open. My first thought was "Hey, that does really happen." So I closed it and continued out.

I wasn't aware of it happening, but I expect that I dragged the croll against the wall, and that action latched it open. Good thing to avoid.

[Tubo Longo]

This past Sunday morning, climbing out of the entance pit of Hellhole, I found my Croll had misbehaved, just as described in the previous posts.... I wasn't aware of it happening, but I expect that I dragged the croll against the wall, and that action latched it open. Good thing to avoid.

Dwight, see http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1513

As discussed there, the rather bulky plastic lever of the newer Croll version could have this kind of accident happen. Scott McCrea offer a possible solution, if you don't have available older models to use.

[Dwight Livingston]

This past Sunday morning, climbing out of the entance pit of Hellhole, I found my Croll had misbehaved, just as described in the previous posts.... I wasn't aware of it happening, but I expect that I dragged the croll against the wall, and that action latched it open. Good thing to avoid.

Dwight, see http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1513

As discussed there, the rather bulky plastic lever of the newer Croll version could have this kind of accident happen. Scott McCrea offer a possible solution, if you don't have available older models to use.

Thanks, that's a better thread. I'm moving over . . .

[NZcaver]

...I looked down and saw the Croll latched open. My first thought was "Hey, that does really happen." So I closed it and continued out.

I wasn't aware of it happening, but I expect that I dragged the croll against the wall, and that action latched it open. Good thing to avoid.

Dwight - thanks for sharing this! If you don't mind, I have a few questions about the incident.

In your opinion as a vertical caver, how much do you think the safety catch on your Croll contributed to this happening - versus your technique? I don't mean to imply you did anything wrong, just that sliding up the rock - accidentally of course - with any cammed ascender could cause problems. Do you now feel this safety catch design is entirely at fault, making your Croll a useless liability? Or do you feel this is a 50/50 design/technique issue, or perhaps you have a different analysis?

You comments about this seem very calm. Did you feel the same way when it actually happened? I'm interested to compare your thoughts with previous comments on a similar incident, mentioned earlier in this thread. In that situation, the unexpected disconnecting of one ascender (leaving only one other gripping the rope) was emotionally described as being "life threatening". Did you feel the same way when it happened to you?

Thanks!


(...also posted here http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=37 to continue the discussion...)

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I thought I'd mention it, I currently use a right hand ascender but I am beginning to find reasons a left hand ascender might be preferable.

1. I borrowed a Pantin from a friend and the Pantin goes on the right foot the loop from the hand ascender on the left foot. To get an appropriate walking action this means that the hand ascender needs to be pushed up with the left hand. This isn't really a problem though.

2. I wanted to see how fit I was for prussicking so I asked a guy in the club if we could use our 200m (~600') uncut roll of rope with a pulley in the roof and a whale-tail to lower the rope. (Tasmania is the only place in Aust with any deep caves (400m) all the ones on the mainland aren't very deep, longest single pitch is 45m (~135') so I hadn't done any real long prussiks).
Anyway either due to bad technique or whatever, as my arms tired I found it easier to put my left hand on the hand ascender and use my right hand to grasp the rope above the hand ascender and pull myself in towards the rope.

3.As I said somewhere else the knot attaching a rope to my hand ascender is on the left hand side of my Croll (otherwise the knot can get in the way of the catch on the Croll) this means you sort of have to pass the hand ascender behind the rope when clipping on. A left handed hand ascender wouldn't need to do that.

On the other hand I absolutely agree that a right handed hand ascender is more intuitive and less error prone for learners.

[NZcaver]

I thought I'd mention it, I currently use a right hand ascender but I am beginning to find reasons a left hand ascender might be preferable.

Don't think I'm shooting down your Right To Choose here, but you presented some flawed logic.

...the loop from the hand ascender on the left foot. To get an appropriate walking action this means that the hand ascender needs to be pushed up with the left hand.

Are you trying to tell us that when you walk, you swing your left arm forward at the same time as your left foot? That would make you look like something out of a Monty Python sketch. Most people seem to be more comfortable with a left foot/right hand (or right foot/left hand) motion...

...Anyway either due to bad technique or whatever, as my arms tired I found it easier to put my left hand on the hand ascender and use my right hand to grasp the rope above the hand ascender and pull myself in towards the rope.

Try this next time. Keep your right hand in the handle of your (right-handed) ascender, but grip it with your left hand too - around the BACK of the cam housing. It gives you a solid and comfortable place to grip, and should help to improve technique. Granted this is not as convenient with a Jumar as it is with a Petzl (not sure what you're using), but it still helps.

...the knot attaching a rope to my hand ascender is on the left hand side of my Croll... this means you sort of have to pass the hand ascender behind the rope when clipping on. A left handed hand ascender wouldn't need to do that.

True - but that really shouldn't cause you any problems, delays, or entanglements. When climbing, the (Frog) footloop cord or strap should be roughly in line with the rope ("behind" it), regardless of whether you're using a lefty or righty Ascension.


But by all means - find someone with a lefty you can borrow and try out. Use that hand technique I mentioned above, but reverse the hands.

Have fun!

[fuzzy-hair-man]

...the loop from the hand ascender on the left foot. To get an appropriate walking action this means that the hand ascender needs to be pushed up with the left hand.

Are you trying to tell us that when you walk, you swing your left arm forward at the same time as your left foot? That would make you look like something out of a Monty Python sketch. Most people seem to be more comfortable with a left foot/right hand (or right foot/left hand) motion...

I tried it initially using the right hand and it felt all wrong very counter intuitive, I swapped hands and it was a lot quicker and smoother. I grasped the ascension at the top with my left hand so the catch was not facing the rock. Maybe it's more like how you climb a ladder

Try this next time. Keep your right hand in the handle of your (right-handed) ascender, but grip it with your left hand too - around the BACK of the cam housing. It gives you a solid and comfortable place to grip, and should help to improve technique. Granted this is not as convenient with a Jumar as it is with a Petzl (not sure what you're using), but it still helps.

That's my usual routine....using an Ascension
My arms were getting pretty tired I tried lots of things it just seemed that it was easier to pull with right hand as far up the rope as possible. The length of my hand ascender attachment rope was optimized for change overs and passing rebelays etc so I don't want to make it any longer...
It was strange because previously I had never wanted to grab the rope that high... it just seemed it pulled me closer to the rope and was easier on that arm when pulling with the arm at full length.

True - but that really shouldn't cause you any problems, delays, or entanglements. When climbing, the (Frog) footloop cord or strap should be roughly in line with the rope ("behind" it), regardless of whether you're using a lefty or righty Ascension.

I think part of it is that I started with my ascender attachment on the right of the Croll and got used to passing rebelays that way and haven't really got used to having to bring it back in front when passing a rebelay. I moved it to the other side because it interfered with the Croll.

Have fun!

Always, There is a lefty in the club, I get him to bring his in.

I don't really know if the above really justifies a left handed ascender, I just thought it was something to think about. Besides it's getting quiet around here.

[NZcaver]

I tried it initially using the right hand and it felt all wrong very counter intuitive, I swapped hands and it was a lot quicker and smoother. I grasped the ascension at the top with my left hand so the catch was not facing the rock. Maybe it's more like how you climb a ladder

Yeah, I guess that makes sense - on the rare occasions I climb a cable ladder, I think I use the same hand/same foot routine.

Ignore my previous post on hand techniques I was still thinking Frog system, rather than a pseudo-ropewalker (or Frog-hopper, as some call it). Yes, having one hand above you on the rope usually helps with balance and efficiency. (Of course using a chest roller makes a big difference too, but that's another story.) You could also try swapping out your handled ascender with a Petzl Basic (the one with no handle). It should be comfortable in your left hand, but you'll have to lengthen your foot cord a bit. Just a thought.

[Tubo Longo]

f-hm, of course you are free to use the tech you'd like more, but I see some non totally correct statements (IMO at least) here. Let's see:

I thought I'd mention it, I currently use a right hand ascender but I am beginning to find reasons a left hand ascender might be preferable.
1. I borrowed a Pantin from a friend and the Pantin goes on the right foot the loop from the hand ascender on the left foot. To get an appropriate walking action this means that the hand ascender needs to be pushed up with the left hand. This isn't really a problem though.

To be balanced on rope, i.e. not a bit on one side, and "to get an appropriate walking action" (as you state), the proper way is, exp. if using a foot only, to have on the hand-ascender the opposite hand than the foot in the foot loop. So, in your case, left foot-right hand is normally correct. I wrote normally because I could figure that the Pantin might ask for a different action. But I don't use the Pantin nor I know that many cavers who use it either.

2. ...Anyway either due to bad technique or whatever, as my arms tired I found it easier to put my left hand on the hand ascender and use my right hand to grasp the rope above the hand ascender and pull myself in towards the rope.

This action of you let me think that you might have some other side problems. Like: harnesses not properly regulated to fit you (too loose?); Croll too high and/or too far away from the chest (see above); improper feet push, i.e. not backward but directed in front of you; safety belay of hand-ascender too long. It might be just one of the above or some of them together. For example, an arm shouldn't be at full extension when climbing, but slightly bended.
We must remember that the Frog system calls for a very careful tuning of both all the gear involved AND our climbing tech as well. Or we'll end up with a rather uncomfortable and miserable climbing system.

3.As I said somewhere else the knot attaching a rope to my hand ascender is on the left hand side of my Croll (otherwise the knot can get in the way of the catch on the Croll) this means you sort of have to pass the hand ascender behind the rope when clipping on. A left handed hand ascender wouldn't need to do that.

But even if you have to pass the hand-ascender around the rope, I won't see any problem with the climbing tech itself. Should you prefer to have the right hand-ascender going out and up on your right, I would suggest 2 possible options.
Either pass the safety belay behind the Croll, so to have the hand-ascender going to the rope on your right. Or connect it with a lock (parallel) biner directly to the harness right loop (assuming you use a caving harness). This way it will be on your right side but so far away from the Croll that it won't bother/interfere with it and its cam in any way.

On the other hand I absolutely agree that a right handed hand ascender is more intuitive and less error prone for learners.

Unless you are a lefty may be.
Intuitive, IMO, should be the tech you use: if you get used and trained on using a left hand-ascender, even if you're not a lefty, then you'll minimize the changes of mistakes. But here we're again talking about training...