what is a the purpose of the "brake" caribiner in a frog set

[Scott McCrea]

Some might say the same about the so-called French Wrap some people use with their racks...

French Wraps compensate for non-ideal rack techniques.

[NZcaver]

French Wraps compensate for non-ideal rack techniques.

No argument from me on that one... unless perhaps a "hands-off" safety is a mandatory requirement for the environment you're working in.

Regardless, I see nothing inherently wrong or flawed about the relationship between bobbins and braking carabiners. It's part of the system. If you disagree or don't understand, you should probably stick with using a rack or an adjustable bobbin with more than two bollards.

[Bill Putnam]

No TAG caver would be caught dead with a braking carabiner clipped into the top of his rack. That's a bastardization of the device that came over from Europe with the Petzl short rack (a ridiculous device that has even more shortcomings than the Stop). Hyperbars are for micro- and mini-racks, and have become accepted these days by the new generation even for full size racks, but they are not necessary for full-size racks if you actually know how to use a rack properly.

[MUD]

Hyperbars are for micro- and mini-racks, and have become accepted these days by the new generation even for full size racks, but they are not necessary for full-size racks if you actually know how to use a rack properly.

That's what I keep tellin those that have full size racks then go get a hyper bar.
You just have to be smarter than the object you're workin with.

[NZcaver]

No TAG caver would be caught dead with a braking carabiner clipped into the top of his rack. That's a bastardization of the device that came over from Europe with the Petzl short rack (a ridiculous device that has even more shortcomings than the Stop). Hyperbars are for micro- and mini-racks, and have become accepted these days by the new generation even for full size racks, but they are not necessary for full-size racks if you actually know how to use a rack properly.

Good point. Consider my previous comment suitably modified to emphasize use in conjunction with the "dirty French rack."

[PeterFJohnson]

I don't have my copy of On Rope handy right now, but belay device on a caver's SRT rig?? Or did you mean to say rappel device? Also, "left to right on the carabiner"? Unless you're using the Petzl Omni half-round carabiner rated for 3-way loading, a screw link would be more appropriate.

You mentioned errors with captions not matching photos, but also the order itself seems wrong. As you look down at your own rig, the chest ascender (technically the seat ascender) should always be the last item on the right - with the possible exception of the braking carabiner. Rigging your cowstail on the right of the ascender is a very bad idea, as it can interfere with the open side of the Croll.

Opps. Thanks for the correction. As you mentioned it should read rappel device and half-round/Maillon not *belay device and *carabiner. I edited the original post. Perhaps we(or at least I) shouldn't be giving On Rope such a hard time about goofing photo captions...

And as I stated in my first post, The croll being placed all the way on the right seems like the best bet to me as well. I haven't experimented with device order enough to conclusively say that any other way is wrong. But the logic of putting the croll on the right stands up for me.

As for handled ascenders my post was just what you said. An opinion.

I do however agree that the term "chest ascender" is misleading. As is On Rope's use of the term "foot ascender" for upper ascender.

[Extremeophile]

I have my cowstail to the left of my Croll on the screw-link (looking down from my point of view). I prefer having my descending device to the right of the Croll. I believe this speeds up changeovers. Can someone explain why this is not safe or less efficient?

[LukeM]

I have been under the impression that either just to the left of the croll (the middle) or to the right is fine for a descender. I've been placing mine to the right all along with no issues.

[Scott McCrea]

I've heard (maybe in Alpine Caving Techniques?) and it makes sense that the descender be to the right. Because, you will never been using them both at the same time. If you had cowstails on the right, which is also the side the Croll's cam lever pulls towards, it could get in the way. Say, if for some reason you had a cowstail and your Croll loaded at the same time, the cowstail could get in the way of the cam mechanism.

[Jeff Bartlett]

but they are not necessary for full-size racks if you actually know how to use a rack properly.

I've never used the hyperbar on my FSR for rappelling, that's for sure. Makes for an easy half-lock, though, and it's easier to release than the traditional "pinch between the rope and the top bar" half-lock.

As for braking carabiners with the use of a bobbin descender, at least in the instance of the Petzl Stop and Petzl Simple, this is a MUST. Petzl doesn't show one in their product literature for some inexplicable reason, but you'll never catch me without one. Varying the angle of the rope exiting your brake carabiner is how you vary the friction with a bobbin device. It is also correct that the brake carabiner is part of the lock-off sequence for both the Stop and the Simple, in both the "S" and "C" configurations.

In instances when there is too much friction for rappelling at the top of a long rope, you can certain remove the free end of the rope from the brake carabiner -- essentially using the device as Petzl describes from that point onward -- but you need that carabiner at the ready, so you can clip back into it as you reach the bottom of the rope and the necessary friction increases.

[mgmills]

No TAG caver would be caught dead with a braking carabiner clipped into the top of his rack. That's a bastardization of the device that came over from Europe with the Petzl short rack (a ridiculous device that has even more shortcomings than the Stop). Hyperbars are for micro- and mini-racks, and have become accepted these days by the new generation even for full size racks, but they are not necessary for full-size racks if you actually know how to use a rack properly.