Improve efficiency of frog system

[Bob Thrun]

You might find it less tiring on your arms if you can pull yourself upright on an ascender with two big handles. <SNIP> Any of the sit-stand climbing methods has an inherent inefficiency. <SNIP>

Bob,

Your comments got me thinking about something that you and I have often discussed: good form. A two-handled ascender probably encourages "bad form" in the sense that it encourages doing pullups instead of using the legs.

I agree fully.

[snoboy]

I was a brand new rope access technician last summer, and I quickly learned over 10,000'+ of frogging that if I wanted to continue in that job that I was going to have to dial my frogging in or retire due to overuse injuries, here's what I learned:

>Buy a Pantin.

>I switched to a Basic from an Ascension which forced me into better form, as I now tend to pull in with my arms instead of up. It also allows me to stand up further with less interference between the hand jammer and the Croll.

>Dial your footloop in as short as possible. This means you have to lift your arms less on each stroke and also helps prevent the pulling up mistake.

>Spend some time really learning what Gary and Bob are talking about above - the "under kick" instead of the "out kick". Using a Pantin will reinforce this, since it loses the rope if your form is poor.

>Learn to climb with the bounce in the rope.

>Keep stuff tight and simple, use a non stretch footloop.

[Kuzgun]

I was a brand new rope access technician last summer, and I quickly learned over 10,000'+ of frogging that if I wanted to continue in that job that I was going to have to dial my frogging in or retire due to overuse injuries, here's what I learned:

>Buy a Pantin.

>I switched to a Basic from an Ascension which forced me into better form, as I now tend to pull in with my arms instead of up. It also allows me to stand up further with less interference between the hand jammer and the Croll.

>Dial your footloop in as short as possible. This means you have to lift your arms less on each stroke and also helps prevent the pulling up mistake.

>Spend some time really learning what Gary and Bob are talking about above - the "under kick" instead of the "out kick". Using a Pantin will reinforce this, since it loses the rope if your form is poor.

>Learn to climb with the bounce in the rope.

>Keep stuff tight and simple, use a non stretch footloop.

Im using Basic too. learned from french people

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I was a brand new rope access technician last summer, and I quickly learned over 10,000'+ of frogging that if I wanted to continue in that job that I was going to have to dial my frogging in or retire due to overuse injuries, here's what I learned:

>Buy a Pantin.

I agree with this one if you can make it work for you, some ideas are that the attachment below the Croll helps keep your body vertical without using your arms (using a usual frog style).

>I switched to a Basic from an Ascension which forced me into better form, as I now tend to pull in with my arms instead of up. It also allows me to stand up further with less interference between the hand jammer and the Croll.

Definately! or if you keep your Ascension use it as you would a Basic, without a hand in the handle and both hands on the top of the ascender, it really helps your frogging form. The other thing I say to new froggers is to try to run the tip of their nose up the rope this gets them to concentrate on getting thier body close to the rope and using thier arms much less.

>Dial your footloop in as short as possible. This means you have to lift your arms less on each stroke and also helps prevent the pulling up mistake.

I don't know about as short as possible but spend a lot of time working out the optimum lengths for all the bits in your system, I have my footloop long enough that if I put my feet in and hold it up tight it is only just clear of the top of the Croll (about a 1/4 of an inch I'd guess) Al Warild's book has a guide for setting footloop and other lengths. The tether from your harness to the ascender is also important, too short and you won't be able to get a full stroke, too long and you can get it out of reach which isn't good either.

>Spend some time really learning what Gary and Bob are talking about above - the "under kick" instead of the "out kick". Using a Pantin will reinforce this, since it loses the rope if your form is poor.

This is the other really good point I tend to push getting people to put their feet underneath their bottom before they stand up.

>Learn to climb with the bounce in the rope.

Good if you can manage it, I don't get enough practice on long drops....

>Keep stuff tight and simple, use a non stretch footloop.

Good point spectra or similar footloops are good and hard wearing too!! and for a couple of bucks why not? I think the beauty of the frog is it's simplicity and light weight so I'd go through your system and trim back excessive weight to get it as light and simple as possible.

My other suggestion is that I noticed my descender interfered with the rope going through my Croll removing my descender (it's now on a carabiner) and putting it on the side of my harness on a gearloop is well worthwhile for long climbs IMO.

[snoboy]

>Dial your footloop in as short as possible. This means you have to lift your arms less on each stroke and also helps prevent the pulling up mistake.

I don't know about as short as possible but spend a lot of time working out the optimum lengths for all the bits in your system, I have my footloop long enough that if I put my feet in and hold it up tight it is only just clear of the top of the Croll (about a 1/4 of an inch I'd guess)

For clarification, that's what I meant by "as short as possible."

[Bill Putnam]

Snoboy has it spot-on. Fast (and comfortable) frogging is all about good form. That comes with practice & concentration.

In the meantime, here is a quick recipe for the frogger who only occasionally does the big drops:

The Poor Caver's Ropewalker (aka the Frogwalker)

Ingredients:
Your Frog system (Basic ascender with footloop, Croll ascender, double cowstail or adjustable lanyard)
Pantin foot ascender
home-made figure-8 chest harness (loop of webbing & a biner or maillon)

Recipe:
First, don your Frog system as usual.
Next, put on your Pantin.
Then, twist the loop of webbing (sized to fit snug on your upper torso) into a Figure-8 and put an arm through each hole.
Flip the 'X' of the webbing Figure-8 over your head so it's between your shoulders.
Pull the webbing strands at the front of your shoulders to the center of your chest and join them with a carabiner or maillon.
You now have a simple chest harness to help keep you upright.
Take your Frog footloop and double it - putting one end under your foot and attaching the other end to the Basic.
Attach the Basic to the rope. It should sit on the rope at about mid-thigh level, like the lower ascender in a Mitchell system.
Clip the rope into your Croll and into the biner of the chest sling.
Climb up a few steps to remove stretch.
Attach the Pantin to the rope.
Climb with style and grace, moving the Basic up the rope with one hand and grasping the rope above the chest harness with the other (for balance).
Rest by sitting on the Croll. Note that you lose almost no height when you sit down.
When you reach a rebelay or a difficult lip, detach the chest sling biner, move the Basic above the Croll (un-double the footloop), detach the Pantin, and voila! Again you have ze Frog Monsieur! Pass the obstacle with style and grace. Re-convert to ropewalker mode as needed.

Notes: The Basic is operated in the same manner as the lower ascender of a Mitchell system. Pull it up the rope with a finger through the upper carabiner hole, or with a short loop of webbing doubled through that hole. No bungee cord necessary. This improvised ropewalker is not as efficient as a real one because you are substituting a carabiner for the chest roller, which introduces some extra friction into the system. It also loses efficiency because it does not keep you as upright as a proper chest harness. But it does work, and it's easier than Frogging on a long free drop, and all you need is a loop of webbing and a biner.

[Kuzgun]

Good point spectra or similar footloops are good and hard wearing too!! and for a couple of bucks why not? I think the beauty of the frog is it's simplicity and light weight so I'd go through your system and trim back excessive weight to get it as light and simple as possible.

Spectra footloop is better than the others for partner rescue while you are taking ascending victim down.

[chh]

That's a good system too Bill, thanks for posting!

Snoboy, I learned a similar thing in my job, only I DID get some use injury as a result of body positioning in ascent as well as other aspects of work positioning aloft. Form really IS important and you have to stay vigilant about your core activation, spinal alignment, and body position at all times. It's so easy to cheat when you get tired, but that's really when you need to step up the awareness of form as you know, I'm sure. The same holds true for increasing your efficiency in vertical caving (or any vertical pursuit) I think.

I know there are probably a lot of people on this board who learned to climb a rope on knots, but I really think that climbing on knots (no matter what system you are using) will help your form eventually. I just taught someone to climb a rope today and they started footlocking with just a single prussik. Granted, not something you want to do for very long, but if you can do that with good form, it only gets easier! This isn't very applicable in caving, but I think the sentiment holds true. Form IS Function.

[Tubo Longo]

Frog is as fantastic as simple. Unluckily it needs fine tuning and a few tricks.

NEVER use a climbing harness, it will sit the croll way too high to make any Frog setting efficient.
A (not too loose) figure 8 with a little strap to connect to the croll is the best chest harness in a Frog.
The cam of the upper ascender has to sit atop the cam of the croll.
Use a static rope or cord for the foot loop.
Wheter you like one or two foot loops, be sure the lenght is right: as said, too short it make you loose space, too long is a dangerous waste of time and energy.
Pantin and extra bungee ropes could help, but NOT if your sistem isn't set properly.
Learn and practice a proper Frog climbing tech: even the best tuned Frog can't help you if your climbing tech is poor or non existing.

I have friends who had climbed out from both Sotano del Barro and Golondrinas in Mexico in a little more than 30'. Using a well set up Frog, proper climbing tech and passing a knot junction mid way up. So much for a slow system, isn't it?

[Chads93GT]

I just bought some 6mm cordage to tie a frog foot loop. Im tired of dragging my ropewalker down the short drops in missouri and decided to do away with using a 180cm dyneema sling for a frog foot loop even though it was the perfect size. I tied a double figure 8 for the foot loops, and a bowline at the top since it is the easiest knot to untie after being weighted for adjustments down the road.

My question, is this how you guys normally tie your foot loops? and no i didnt put any clear pvc tubing over them to keep the loops open. I find the 6mm cordage rigid enough as it is and much more compact without the tubing.

[self-deleted_user]

Interesting simple chest harness thingie for a frogwalking type system...never thought of a 'biner on webbing like that. I have the pantin now and have tried frogwalking just using that (so basically alternating moving the right foot w/pantin up, then upper ascender with the footloops but I just put left foot through both of 'em, walk that way) but it's hard to get any sort of momentum going and ends up being easier to just frog so far. I feel like i'm keeping my upper body upright and close to the rope though. I have a Pup's Pal now which is omg amazing and I totally recommend it as the best chest harness thingie for frogging. It's the only thing that actually pulls the croll up for me consistantly (I think my...erm...chest, gets in the way of the normal harnesses or something). And the worst thing about frogging I have learned is struggling to get that damn croll to move up because it wastes so much effort every stand up it doesn't move. I can't help it that I have a weird angle on it due to my body shape! >_> And bonus, Pup's Pal is lighter, smaller, and easier. And last few weekends I've had some help fine-tuning lengths on things which has been really nice. Now I just know I need lots o' practice 'cause I *know* i use my arms too much.

Uhmmm knots to tie the footloops...I can't remember but now I have the ones from OR1 that Bruce makes and I like 'em. I'll take a photo tomorrow if you want.

[Tubo Longo]

Chad, in Europe the two separate foot loops aren't that common at all, while they are so here in the US. Also, the plastic tube isn't used much to keep the loop open but to avoid to damage the rope too fast with all the dirt you pick up under the sole of your boots. As for the knot, I've always used a figure 8, as most of cavers I know.

Amy, if the croll doesn't run, then or is your body shape or some setting issue. The body shape can be ovecome only to a certain degree, while the setting issue can be dealt with very effectively. It could also be a matter of poor climbing tech, or just a combination of all these issues. Hard to say without actualy seeing you on rope.

[KeyserSoze]

Thanks for all of the input. I've been working on this a lot, trying different setups, and I've finally put something together that works almost just as good as a rope walker.

I'm using the Pantin on my right foot and the foot loop on my left foot. I have a padded chest harness that I've actually attached to the main hand ascender, not the croll. The result is that when I stand up, the connection to the hand ascender on my chest harness immediately captures the progress, which almost completely relieves me of having to use my arms to hold myself upright. This also makes resting much more comfortable because it distributes my weight between the chest harness and the seat harness almost 50/50. I can use this setup to walk up the rope with alternating steps just like a rope walker.

I'm ready for Ellisons now.

[Tubo Longo]

KeyserSoze, could you post a pic of this setting please? Just curious, since I'm not sure to have got how it works. Thanks

[self-deleted_user]

Amy, if the croll doesn't run, then or is your body shape or some setting issue. The body shape can be ovecome only to a certain degree, while the setting issue can be dealt with very effectively. It could also be a matter of poor climbing tech, or just a combination of all these issues. Hard to say without actualy seeing you on rope.

I know I need to work on technique but I've been told I'm pretty natural at it. Issue was chest basically. Everything gets caught up on my boobs. I can't help that. The pups pal makes it so the croll can move up as tension is always on it and it runs between the girls and so the chest harness doesn't catch itself up on my body and make everything awkward.