Improve efficiency of frog system

[Chads93GT]

Thanks for all of the input. I've been working on this a lot, trying different setups, and I've finally put something together that works almost just as good as a rope walker.

I'm using the Pantin on my right foot and the foot loop on my left foot. I have a padded chest harness that I've actually attached to the main hand ascender, not the croll. The result is that when I stand up, the connection to the hand ascender on my chest harness immediately captures the progress, which almost completely relieves me of having to use my arms to hold myself upright. This also makes resting much more comfortable because it distributes my weight between the chest harness and the seat harness almost 50/50. I can use this setup to walk up the rope with alternating steps just like a rope walker.

I'm ready for Ellisons now.

Definately easy to frog out of ellisons if you are in shape for it and trained for it. Last time there i climbed tandem out with a gal frogging above me. she started out 150' above and at the top i was only 50' below. She was fast!
granted....i had just bounced the pit so i was a little tired, lol

[Tubo Longo]

Amy, if the croll doesn't run, then or is your body shape or some setting issue. The body shape can be ovecome only to a certain degree, while the setting issue can be dealt with very effectively. It could also be a matter of poor climbing tech, or just a combination of all these issues. Hard to say without actualy seeing you on rope.

I know I need to work on technique but I've been told I'm pretty natural at it. Issue was chest basically. Everything gets caught up on my boobs. I can't help that. The pups pal makes it so the croll can move up as tension is always on it and it runs between the girls and so the chest harness doesn't catch itself up on my body and make everything awkward.

Hope you're using a caving harness and not a climbing one: the difference is that in a caving harness the croll sits much lower and so there're less change to get it caught in your girls. I'd also definitely suggest to use a "V" chest harness, so that the slings goes in between your girls instead than somehow around, helping even more.
A trick to help stand upright is to put a biner (or even two) from the top of the chest harness to the rope: it better be a steel one, to avoid having to trash it quite often (because of the friction on the rope). This way you can be at the same time closer to the rope AND more upright, thus helping your push quite a bit.

Apart from these few suggestion, be sure to have the rest of the Frog well tuned to you and yes, some good practice on good tech climbing are due.
In my experience being short is not an issue: have been caving with short cavers and they were excellent climbers: but their system was well tuned up and they had good tech. The same with some cavers gals, some also with a big breast: none of them had any visible issue with their body shape while climbing efficiently.

[NZcaver]

pups pal

???

[self-deleted_user]

pups pal

???

Pup's Pal

Basically, bungie inside tubular webbing for comfort. Attaches to the croll, and then to the back of the seat harness somewhere. None of this fancy H or X or V shape harnessey stuff to complicate and make things hard for me xD. No pulling weird around neck/shoulders, comfortable, takes up a lot less space in a pack than webbing chest harnesses too. If you really want, you don't even need the tubular webbing over it saving even more space. When I was at King Leo pit with Pup, he said I should get one when he saw the issues I was having. Damn was he right! Best $6 I ever spent on cavegear.

Her 'tis me in it...photo credit to Sai.


Tubo - yes I'm using a caving harness...Aaron Bird basically set me up with everything initially, and Marduke from here has taught me a lot as well thus far. Definitely am learning from qualified people in person. I have the OR1 Goliath harness, which is specifically made with a low attachment point for frogging. Everyone's body is different, and I think for us girls, even more complicated. No offense guys, you have flat chests which are slightly easier to deal with when working with getting a good fitting chest harness that is comfortable. I was trying to share my experiences thus far as a new caver, and even newer to vertical, to help is all. Lots of work especially at Speleofest on rope with a few folks who do the vertical training for the Louisville Grotto, and then last weekend at SERA with Marduke, I feel like i"m really getting things set right, just a matter of practice practice practice! And practicing being watched so I do it the *right* way and fix technique issues as people see them so I'm not doing things less effective for a long time.

People say practice makes perfect. No. As my capoeira instructor says, practice makes permanent. So true.

[NZcaver]

Pup's Pal

Basically, bungie inside tubular webbing for comfort. Attaches to the croll, and then to the back of the seat harness somewhere. None of this fancy H or X or V shape harnessey stuff to complicate and make things hard for me xD.

Hmmmm. I have a related pearl of wisdom which may interest you. Back in 2003 I noticed another caver using a simple bungy loop around the neck in place of a regular frog chest harness/loop. It seemed like a good idea at the time, so naturally I copied it. Other friends also liked this design, so I made up a handful of these cheap loops for them. My versions used elastic bungy cord inside tubular webbing, tied in a loop with a small brass spring clip to attach to the top of the Croll. I thought I had photos of it, but apparently not.

The neck loop concept is small, light, cheap and works pretty well, but there are a couple of caveats you should know about because they will also apply to the version you have. If you're climbing with a heavy pack (eg multi-day trip, lots of camera gear, rope bags, etc), you will lose efficiency big-time. As you stand up, the bungy will stretch because of the weight of extra equipment hanging off your central screw link. Therefore the Croll will only move up the rope a small amount with every climb stroke. From personal experience, I can assure you this is rather tiresome and frustrating. The second caveat is if you ever need to lift a person's weight during a pickoff, the bungy will most likely make that impossible for the same reason. Both of these issues can be worked around by using a length of webbing or cord to tie a "real" chest harness if/when you need one.

Another personal preference consideration is whether you like your frog chest harness to provide a little back support for you while you climb. The bungy option provides no real support. The old figure 8 loop isn't much better, and although popular it is notoriously uncomfortable for many people. The H-strap GGG etc designs seem to do better, but as you found they too don't suit everybody. I ended up phasing out my bungy loop after about a year or so of use, and made sure the cavers who had them were aware of the above caveats.

[self-deleted_user]

Thanks for the info. Yes I did notice no back support at *all* when climbing, but that doesn't bother me so much actually. I never really used that thus far, I guess my core is strong enough to hold me upright without help? I do have the H-harness still which is adjusted for me (and is better than the V version) should I need it, it's in my pack.