Going with a bobbin or stop?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Simple pro:
-as variable, if not moreso, than any micro rack I've used.

Care to elaborate? Not being a user of the Simple bobbin, I'm curious about this.

I doubt there's more variability in a Simple than a rack but I do think a lot of the variability of a Simple (and Stop) is neglected in comparisons to a rack. That is you can vary the friction by where you hold the rope with your brake hand up at 12 o'clock and you have the most down at 6 o'clock and you have the least, I think this variability is often assumed but it isn't so much offered in racks unless they have hyperbars.

The other thing I like about Simples and Stops is that you transition from a locked off position into the position of greatest friction and move from there to less friction. Conversely the rack needs you to move the rope from the half lock down to behind your hip before starting to descend (you could abseil with the rope over the hyperbar but let's not go there ). I think this smooth transition from locked off to abseiling is worth noting.

I beg to differ on the Stops being better on rebelays etc than a Simple. Generally I found the Stop handle didn't really come into play too much, perhaps more for rigging... We run SRT races and within my club the top 5 places were Simples then there was a couple of Stops, the racks were also runs... (The Simple users tend also to be SRT fans and spend the most time practicing so that may skew the results, or maybe they just spent that time finding out how good the Simple is? Oh in the interests of full disclosure I'm very much a Simple fan, but I've tried Racks and Stops and teach both)
I think the advantage for Simples comes in that they are generally quicker and smoother to thread which can make a big difference when your continually taking them on and off rope, that the fact that you can use the other hand to fight all the obstacles that go into our SRT courses.

Regarding depth, the deepest I've used my Simple on is 110m it was hot enough that I could feel the radiant heat from it on the side of my face as I was abseiling but that said I kept moving and pulled rope through when I got bottom and there was no sign of any glazing, for anyone wondering about loosing control on long drops it's a non-issue IMO with the rope weight below you, you tend to end up pulling up rope to allow you to move downward which makes for a pretty jerky abseil. For this reason if you had the choice I'd try breaking 100m plus pitches up with a rebelay in between, the added benefit is you can get your party up and down the rope close to twice as fast (2 people able to be on the drop at once).
If you had a one drop cave with a pitch over 100m without a rebelay breaking it up then the Simple wouldn't be my descender of choice but that doesn't happen very often (at all) around here so I don't think I'm missing out.

[Mugger]

Some very good input here, thanks!

After reading the replies here (and despite a feeling of bobbins/stops being taboo here in the states), I think I want to go with the Simple. I really like the ease of use, and quick on/off concepts. My main fear (being able to use it safely at my current weight) seems to be addressed with the correct use of a braking carabiner (planning on buying a Petzl Frieno). I'm not likely to come across drops off 100m or more, and even if I do I'd be using my full rack anyways, so that's a non issue. I do like the idea of the parking break on the Stop, but if I'm going to be stopping anywhere on rope I'm pretty sure I'll be locking off anyways. Besides, I'll still have my current rack in my gear box to fall back on if I'm not happy....

But not wanting to limit myself (and kinda being a gear junkie), I think I'll ask around at our next grotto meeting and see if anyone has a micro rack I can try out.... If I like it, I know what I'll ask for for Christmas (or my birthday, as it's closer).

[paul]

Amy, do they use micro-racks in Britain? If not, I bet you could get a lot of points by taking one with you. Everyone will want to play with yours so would be happy to trade, at least on a short term basis (but have someone walk you through it first).

I've never seen a micro-rack here in the UK. Those who do use a rack - and there are some who do - usually use a Petzl 5 bar rack. This is simply because that's about the only choice of racks for sale here in the UK. For this reason, UK cavers generally will not know what a micro-rack is. Even if they did, the extra shipping costs from the US would probably sway their prefernce for a local purchase (even via an online supplier).

I first used a Stop when I bagan caving many years ago but switched to a Simple not long afterwards and continue to use a Simple. This was because I'm fairly tall and heavy and found holding the handle in on the Stop tiring for my left hand plus it seemed quite jerky in descent, even with the handle all the way in. It was a trip to the Gouffre Berger back in 1990 with its many pitches, none very long, but there are quite a few, which finally made up my mind to switch to a Simple.

[paul]

I beg to differ on the Stops being better on rebelays etc than a Simple. Generally I found the Stop handle didn't really come into play too much, perhaps more for rigging...

I have to agree with you regarding Stops v. Simple and rebelays.

Interestingly, I know one caver who uses two Stops at a time.In order to pass a rebaly on descent, he abseils doen on the first Stop and then at the anchor he lets go of that Stop (no need to lock off as even if he did slip, he would only slide a foot or soo onto the rebaly loop). He then places his second Stop on the rope below, locks off and abseils the remaining distance on the first Stop until his weight comes onto the second Stop. He removes the first Stop, unlocks the second and continues on his way.

Yes, very odd and unusual, but he coped with a trip down the Pierre St. Martin a couple of years ago using this method. A good example of a very deep cave where a rack isn't required as there are so many rebelays.

[self-deleted_user]

Yes, very odd and unusual, but he coped with a trip down the Pierre St. Martin a couple of years ago using this method. A good example of a very deep cave where a rack isn't required as there are so many rebelays.

(OT) is that the one where you start at the top of the mountain and do a through trip to the bottom, basically? I keep forgetting the name of that one I think it's not in the UK though France or something...

and back OT if you want to see a micro-rack, I'll have it with me this summer and I am gonna try and get up to the Peak District too this time.

[snoboy]

Interestingly, I know one caver who uses two Stops at a time.In order to pass a rebaly on descent, he abseils doen on the first Stop and then at the anchor he lets go of that Stop (no need to lock off as even if he did slip, he would only slide a foot or soo onto the rebaly loop). He then places his second Stop on the rope below, locks off and abseils the remaining distance on the first Stop until his weight comes onto the second Stop. He removes the first Stop, unlocks the second and continues on his way.

Standard procedure for pick off rescue past a rebelay with a two person load... hope he's around if you ever need to be rescued!

[Chads93GT]

Just steal the pickoff-ee's simple and use it to pass rebelays, hehe.

[cavedoc]

Interestingly, I know one caver who uses two Stops at a time.In order to pass a rebaly on descent, he abseils doen on the first Stop and then at the anchor he lets go of that Stop (no need to lock off as even if he did slip, he would only slide a foot or soo onto the rebaly loop). He then places his second Stop on the rope below, locks off and abseils the remaining distance on the first Stop until his weight comes onto the second Stop. He removes the first Stop, unlocks the second and continues on his way.

Standard procedure for pick off rescue past a rebelay with a two person load... hope he's around if you ever need to be rescued!

I now have something to work on at our next vertical practice. Seems like you would want to lock off before getting to the bottom of the loop so you can get onto the next rope, release Simple #1 to weight Simple #2 and unweight Simple#1 in the same process. No heavy lifting if done well.

[snoboy]

Seems like you would want to lock off before getting to the bottom of the loop so you can get onto the next rope, release Simple #1 to weight Simple #2 and unweight Simple#1 in the same process. No heavy lifting if done well.

Exactly. Lock off as soon as you can get the next section of rope into the next descender. Load it up tight against the knot. ACT suggests that you can steal a little slack from the rope below if required (ie work it through the knot to add to the rebelay loop), but obviously that's only going to work so many times. If you know you are headed for a tight rebelay loop, then extend your descender ahead of time, so that when you get to the rebelay anchor, you can get past it while still on the first descender.

Way OT here... sorry Mugger!

[chh]

NZ, I think the variability of a Simple very much depends on how you use both. I will admit that I have far more experience on a Simple, but have used a micro rack some. Basically, for me it comes down to the fact that I like biners instead of hyper bars, something that will actually capture the rope, especially during somewhat athletic moves like long penjis for example. I also find it easier, or at least more intuitive to provide a belay for a climber on a Simple as opposed to a micro rack in the case of climbing a high lead or any other leading done in caves if you are not using another belay device entirely or a munter. Also, I've only ever used a micro without hyper bars. I've used a full sized rack with hypers, but found them unnecessary with a single person load. I've caved with a Simple on anything from muddy 12mm rope to clean and wet 7mm, never had a problem controlling my descent. That alone is all I need to know Also, I never leave home without 2 braking carabiners on my harness. I think this makes a big difference as far as what you may be likely to encounter. Granted my second braking carabiner usually just sits on my gear loop, but when do you not want to have another biner around, right?

As far as the Stop goes I think a little creep isn't the end of the world, and I'll also reiterate that heavier people will have a different experience with them than lighter people. I'm a light person, as is my wife, and in the group of American cavers I know we are the only ones who use bobbins almost exclusively for what we do. For whatever that's worth. However, I will say that in using both, I like the ability to control friction better with a Simple than a Stop. Again, my own personal preference.

[gdstorrick]

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[chh]

A simple does not have enough friction for a heavy caver carrying a heavy camp duffel, IMHO. If you are light and not doing that, it may have enough friction - your call, not mine. One thing I like about a standard rack is that I can use the number of bars that gives me a controlled rappel on just about any rope, and if I were to lose control, I might even have a slow descend - but I'm not betting my life on it. Much better not to lose control in the first place.

While I normally agree with you Gary, I disagree about heavier people and Simples. Heavier people and Stops will have different experiences as I've said, though I think mostly because of the braking mechanism. Without one I think it's just a matter of varying friction with biners. I've carried some heavy packs with me, and have also done two person loads on my Simple. Though I rely heavily on my second braking carabiner here or even a third in the case of a 2 person load, I've not had a problem with standard 11mm caving ropes. However, I can totally appreciate not wanting to use the braking carabiners 100% of the time and opting for a different device (like the rack) that would mitigate this problem. But when you find something that works for you, it's hard not to defend it I love my Simple.

[NZcaver]

Heavier people and Stops will have different experiences as I've said, though I think mostly because of the braking mechanism. Without one I think it's just a matter of varying friction with biners. I've carried some heavy packs with me, and have also done two person loads on my Simple. Though I rely heavily on my second braking carabiner here or even a third in the case of a 2 person load, I've not had a problem with standard 11mm caving ropes. However, I can totally appreciate not wanting to use the braking carabiners 100% of the time and opting for a different device (like the rack) that would mitigate this problem.

This is the first I've heard about using multiple braking carabiners to add friction to one descender. How does that work?

One time I had to increase friction when using a Anthron Stop on an 8mm rope, but I just tied a Munter on my braking carabiner.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Extremeophile]

From some of the discussion my impression is that some people may be using bobbins without a braking carabiner (but maybe I'm mis-understanding?). I think a braking carabiner is a critical component of the system and wouldn't use a bobbin without one. When I use a separate biner attached to the D maillion I've occasionally had problems with the top of the bobbin wanting to hook under the biner when the system is unweighted - e.g. during an ascend to descend change-over. This is a little unnerving when it happens. As a result I've switched to the Freino, which eliminates this possibility. The location of the braking hook on the Freino also adds a tighter bend in the rope as it exits the final bobbin and gives better control (in my experience). This is welcome when using new (clean) or smaller diameter ropes. You can also do two quick wraps over the top of the bobbin and through the braking hook for a very easy hard-lock. After trying a Simple with the Freino I wouldn't go back to using a separate braking carabiner.

I think it's already been mentioned but I'll emphasize that another big advantage of the Simple over a Stop or rack is that it is controlled with one hand (the braking hand). Stops and racks require a second hand to release the brake or spread the bars respectively. Having the other hand free when using the Stop helps at rebelays, passing deviations, crossing lips, positioning rope pads or having easy access to the QAS.