what knot do you use?

[self-deleted_user]

The knot I mentioned before that I didn't put a name to was the triple figure 8 (bend). It's the recommended mid-pitch knot in Alpine Caving Techniques, and I can't seem to find a picture online for it. If you're already planning on having a loop available at the join you might as well incorporate it into the joining knot rather than adding a loop to one of the tails. Much simpler looking too.

You mean one of these?

Yes, thank you NZ! Such a beautiful knot, though admittedly not the best if you need a low-profile connection.

So pretty! And like Christmas! And I like the look of the knot too. I need to find another piece of rope I think to try out some of these on my own...I only have a few ft of 8mm I practice knots on. I dunno maybe because I like math and knot theory so much but I find knots utterly fascinating and artistic and beautiful....

[PseudoFission]

See here:

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

Comparing EDK (overhand) to Figure Eight. Good reference if you use the EDK a lot. I also use the EDK on occasion - but usually put another overhand on one or both of the two tails coming out to prevent it from rolling (I think this is what Andy described as well?). I have a climbing friend who regularly uses a re-traced butterfly to join two ropes. He has tested it and swears by it - but it's a real mental exercise to teach yourself to re-trace a butterfly!

- Andrew

[slapout]

Kolin Powick whom is the Q and A guy for black diamond did a load test and the edk was 20 to 30 percent weaker than the dfk. As usual for google alot of different opinions.

[Cody JW]

I have been caving for 30 years now and so far have never joined two ropes yet. I am one of those who normally brings more rope than needed for any drop I have not been to. I have seen many cases where guidebooks say to use a certain length rope and when I get there it looks to me like you need more based on my rigging choice. As far as my preferred knot, the figure 8 on bight. It can be used for both end line or mid line knots. I think a three wrap tensionless rig around a tree or boulder and locked off with a locking biner is simple, easy to undo after being weighted and choice in my opinion. Also use the 8 on bight to rig to bolts as well.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

While we are on the subject of how to join ropes I ran across the Capuchin knot on the UK Caving forum ages ago....

Essentially tie a half double fishermans on a bight (or a barrel knot on a bight, however you want to put it) and then thread the rope you want to join through the middle and tie a half double fishermans / barrell knot on the other side.

Here's a couple of images I stole from here:
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/CSCA%20Publications/Knots%20A5.pdf






Well I found it interesting anyway....

[tncaver]

I use the figure 8 almost exclusively. It can be tied in more than one way to accomplish what is needed and is one of the easiest knots to tie.
The knot can be tied in a single 8 and easily threaded back through itself to make completed knot and can be quickly tied with just a couple of
flips of the rope. It's strength rivals a bowline and it is much easier to tie correctly.

The figure 8 is so simple that even after a brutal hard core cave trip, that has tired a caver to the point exhaustion, (almost to the point of
being brain dead) [figuratively speaking of course], the knot can still easily be tied correctly. It also has the advantage that it can be very quickly
tied anywhere along a ropes length as well as at the ends. Extremely quick and useful for connecting biners to bolt hangers, making
foot loop(s), tying a rope to a tree without using a biner, putting a foot loop at the end of the rappel rope to stand in if necessary, and even for
joining ropes together to gain length (excluding the vertical standing lines).
My one cent.

[NZcaver]

While we are on the subject of how to join ropes I ran across the Capuchin knot on the UK Caving forum ages ago....

Interesting. Hadn't seen that one before. Thanks!

Long time no hear, Arrin. Keeping busy?

I use the figure 8 almost exclusively. It can be tied in more than one way to accomplish what is needed and is one of the easiest knots to tie.

Much as I love to explore different knots and variations, you make an excellent point John. There is value in "keep it simple." Very common, easy to tie, moderately easy to untie, easily inspected, several variations for different applications, and they do the job well in most situations. Training in vertical ropework and rope rescue usually centers on a core group of just 6-12 knots, so as not to confuse students with too many choices for each application.

[potholer]

My favourite caving mid-pitch rope-joining knot is an alpine butterfly tied after the ropes have been joined with a back-threaded figure-8, leaving the figure 8 joining the ropes in the loop of the alpine butterfly to give a clip-in point, and with the alpine butterfly giving a very small knot to pass.

[Marduke]

My favourite caving mid-pitch rope-joining knot is an alpine butterfly tied after the ropes have been joined with a back-threaded figure-8, leaving the figure 8 joining the ropes in the loop of the alpine butterfly to give a clip-in point, and with the alpine butterfly giving a very small knot to pass.

Ohh, I love it. And it should pull easily over lips, just like the EDK.

I shall try this at Friday practice.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[paul]

While we are on the subject of how to join ropes I ran across the Capuchin knot on the UK Caving forum ages ago....

Essentially tie a half double fishermans on a bight (or a barrel knot on a bight, however you want to put it) and then thread the rope you want to join through the middle and tie a half double fishermans / barrell knot on the other side.

Here's a couple of images I stole from here:
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/CSCA%20Publications/Knots%20A5.pdf






Well I found it interesting anyway....

That would have been me who posted that info on UKCaving.com about using the Capuchin Knot to join ropes.

I find this knot is very useful as it makes a quick and easy to tie end knot which is a bit more bulky than a Figure of Eight which most UK cavers use for this purpose. Being a bit more bulky is a benefit when used as an end knot to prevent abseiling off the end of a rope. Plus it's very quick and easy to join two ropes together and has a loop to clip into.

Joining ropes and hence requiring a knot pass is something we generally avoid by tying up any remaining length of rope so that it won't be used accidentally and then starting with a new rope at a rebelay if a single rope isn't long enough to complete the pitch, rather than just tying on a new rope in between rebelays.

[Anonymous_Coward]

I prefer to bring a long enough rope, since it simplifies things. I have a preferred knot , but it is more interesting to see what others prefer. Some of those choices sound like they require most of the rope just to tie the knot . As for knot strength, well, I used to worry about that, but now I wonder if using a strong enough rope wouldn't help .

Over the years, my approach to vertical has gotten simpler, not more sophisticated (a euphamism for "more complicated" ). Don't get me wrong - I love weird gear and have tried a few strange ideas - but keeping things simple works for me.

Gary

Sooo, you're not going to tell us what you prefer? You're only going to ridicule others' suggestions?

Wow, thanks for such an incredibly helpful post.

[Cody JW]

I prefer to bring a long enough rope, since it simplifies things. I have a preferred knot , but it is more interesting to see what others prefer. Some of those choices sound like they require most of the rope just to tie the knot . As for knot strength, well, I used to worry about that, but now I wonder if using a strong enough rope wouldn't help .

Over the years, my approach to vertical has gotten simpler, not more sophisticated (a euphamism for "more complicated" ). Don't get me wrong - I love weird gear and have tried a few strange ideas - but keeping things simple works for me. I agree,Keep it simple. One rope, less chance of something bad happening. But I am used to the US way of doing things.

Gary

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[tncaver]

I've always been a believer in the KISS formula (Keep It Simple Stupid). I wish our tax system was based on the KISS system, as well as many other things
in life that have been made way more complicated than they need to be.