Camalots C3 or Metolius?

[Fairfield]

Looking to get new smaller sized cams. Was wondering what your thoughts are between the C3 and the metolius cams are? was thinking of going with Metolius......

[Amazingracer]

You may not find the best advice here. Cams are hardly used in caves. And mud would not do them much good either. Some people will occasionally use them bolt climbing, but most of us arent running around with a trad rack

[Fairfield]

ya I thought that I also asked on other forums for that reason.... hey but you never know, there might be some mountain/rock/aid climbers on here somewhere....

[Amazingracer]

Yep, there are some here I believe. Was just setting expectations lol

[BrianC]

I liked my friends, but that was more than 34 years ago! Since then my friends have disappeared.

Some , you might find in Red River George, at some random run out crack?

[hunter]

For funky granite stuff (pin scars) where the head width of the cam is critical the C3 is probably the best but the TCU isn't bad. I tend to think the stem also works better for taking aid climbing type abuse. The 4CU has a broad head so it is really only useful for splitter type stuff. The Metolious master cam is pretty close in feel to an Alien but seems way better made. I personally like these as a narrow 4 camming unit but I seem to remember they are more expensive.

[chh]

I have a few Metolious TCU's and like them. I got them before the C3's came out though. I don't own any C3s. I've held my TCU's up next to the C3's and the heads on the C3s are narrower. Might make a difference, depending on what you're going to use them for. I've never placed the C3s, so I can't offer much of an opinion on them. They seem like they'd do pretty well. They might be what I'd buy now if I needed (or rather, had the money for) more small 3 lobed cams.

[Extremeophile]

I agree with James, both the TCUs and C3s are great in pin scars. I favor the C3s for smaller sizes (red and yellow), and like the TCUs for larger placements (orange and red). The C3 springs seem a bit stiffer so they don't walk as much as the TCUs, but the C3s are more expensive. I'm also a big fan of Aliens for their narrow width, but many pin scars seem to be tailor made for C3s or TCUs.

Derek

[Marlatt]

Per the original question regarding "smaller sized" stuff, I personally am very fond of tricams. This is especially true as related to the cave environment, were mud and grit may be arguments against active cams. Tricams can be a bit fiddly to place, and so get some bad press for use on hard climbs - but usually, that sort of leading doesn't get much practice underground; more typically, if the climbing gets very hard, it gets aided - and here a nice range of tricams are also pretty useful. They can be a bit tricky to remove it heavily weighted, particularly if small (one sees the little pink guys left fixed a lot). They are also quite light, and relatively inexpensive (compared to cams).

-Stuart
(Older readers might recall Lowe's original ads for their tricams, which showed them used on mixed ground - in cracks where one wall was rock and the other ice. Word - they work well in icy, muddy placements.)

[hunter]

For in cave climbing I always carry and use tri-cams and I really like the two new baby sizes (black and white) that are aid only. They also have there place climbing outdoors but I almost never carry them unless I am on funky rock.
That being said I wouldn't consider tri-cams to be a replacement for "small cams" in my day to day trad climbing. One obvious problem is that the smallest fully rated tri-cam (pink I think) is for ~a 0.5in crack. Any micro-cam set will go 3 or 4 sizes below this. The second thing is that they just don't place the same. Some areas you can place both but placing a tricam in a nice vertical splitter is somewhere between dicey and impossible depending on the rock.

[Tim White]

"Marlatt"(Older readers might recall Lowe's original ads for their tricams, which showed them used on mixed ground - in cracks where one wall was rock and the other ice. Word - they work well in icy, muddy placements.)

Love my TriCams for cave use.

[chh]

Actually, they make at least three smaller tricams than the pink. Came out a few years back when they started slinging the larger ones with dyneema as well. I've used them in small cracks and they worked just like they should, haven't tried them in a pin scar yet. Typically the places I climb don't have many pin scars.

[hunter]

Actually, they make at least three smaller tricams than the pink. Came out a few years back when they started slinging the larger ones with dyneema as well. I've used them in small cracks and they worked just like they should, haven't tried them in a pin scar yet. Typically the places I climb don't have many pin scars.

Below pink they make the two new size I referred to originally (white and black): http://www.camp-usa.com/products/product-charts/tricams.asp#dyneematricams These two sizes are rated for 3/2 and 5/3 kN respectively. 5kN is the bottom for fall protection and 3 or 2kN is aid only. Oh and like I said, I like my tri-cams. I just don't consider them a replacement for something like a C3.

[Tim White]

5kN is the bottom for fall protection and 3 or 2kN is aid only. Oh and like I said, I like my tri-cams. I just don't consider them a replacement for something like a C3.

Fall protection has more than one definition. UIAA standards require fixed anchor strength to be a minimum of 22 kN. OSHA requirement for fall protection anchors is 5,000 lbf (22kN) per employee attached.

Nominal climbing falls can load anchor with forces of 1 kN to 5 kN. Does UIAA have a minimum for pro to be used on lead? What is your reference regarding the "5kN is the bottom for fall protection and 3 or 2kN is aid only".

[hunter]

Hmm, might be in one of my books. I've just seen this in buying gear, under 4-6 kN (company dependent) gear is labeled as aid only. BD stoppers from REI are a good example. Poking around though:
[url]
http://books.google.com/books?id=J5_sl0 ... ts&f=false[/url]

CE Minimum for a camming devince - 5kN
CE Minimum for passive gear - 2kN

There are various other analysis out there, this one suggests (http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/file ... ed_to_be(0).pdf ) 12 kN as a minimum for anchor use in lead climbing with 12 > S > 7 kN being marginal.

I suspect some numbers are explicitly included in UIAA standards but it isn't immediately clear to me how to access them.