Tying an adjustable cowstail

[Extremeophile]

Passing lips it is nice with a ropewalker to shorten it so you can get right under a nasty lip without flipping over, then you can adjust your 2nd qas to full length to reach past the nasty lip and unclip the one you just shortened.

It just makes passing lips easier when you can adjust things on the fly, rather than having dedicated lengths that cant be changed. I like to be able to do different things with my rig and having adjustability helps with that.

Your still not convincing me I've got to have one. Seems like it takes 2 hands to shorten it, and probably 2 hands to lengthen it in most situations. With a ropewalker I'm generally only weighting the upper ascender while resting. I might use the handle when crossing lips or going up low angle slopes, but I wouldn't weight the cowstail in these situations. I guess I could imagine - on a really, really nasty lip - sitting down on a shortened cowstail while attaching a 2nd QAS above the lip (I think this is what you're describing), but that just sounds lazy. You've got to sell this thing harder!

[Chads93GT]

I am not really TRYING to sell it. When i started rope walking I used safetys that Howie made and sold out of webbing. they were adjustable sure, when they werent being used you could set the length. I however dont like hanging from webbing, I just dont, so I tried an onrope QAS with the adjustable safety where I can adjust it on the fly. It like it, I like being able to adjust the lengths to different situations, its how I climb. Yes I have to use 2 hands to lengthen or short it but I am in luck becuase I happen to have 2 hands. ;)

[NZcaver]

... what it looks like is her friend tied the cows tail and the adjustable leg loops alll out of the same rope.

Talk about hellaciously bulkly and the inability to remove the leg loops to use the hand ascender as a qas without clutter. Yeek.

... really bulky and non-removable foot loops of dynamic rope. Eegads all around. The dynamic will stretch as you stand in it...

Off-topic (sorry), but I think this needs to be said.

While I personally subscribe to the same logic you both do, be aware it's not uncommon for frog systems to be set up like that. Some people prefer a single length of thicker cord/rope (not necessarily dynamic) going from the harness to a mid-rope knot at the upper ascender, and continuing down to the feet (in addition to a separate double cowstail). As I understand, this is mainstream among cavers in the UK. I'd rather use my 5.5mm spectra footloops and one side of the double cowstail as my upper ascender safety, but personal preference is a wonderful thing. And BTW, I can vouch for her friend who set up the system. He knows what he's doing.

[Chads93GT]

when i first built my frog system I had it like hers. I found it to be too much clutter and simplified it down to just the cowstail and a qas. I haven't seen anyone use one like it (except me) since, lol.

[self-deleted_user]

... what it looks like is her friend tied the cows tail and the adjustable leg loops alll out of the same rope.

Talk about hellaciously bulkly and the inability to remove the leg loops to use the hand ascender as a qas without clutter. Yeek.

... really bulky and non-removable foot loops of dynamic rope. Eegads all around. The dynamic will stretch as you stand in it...

Off-topic (sorry), but I think this needs to be said.

While I personally subscribe to the same logic you both do, be aware it's not uncommon for frog systems to be set up like that. Some people prefer a single length of thicker cord/rope (not necessarily dynamic) going from the harness to a mid-rope knot at the upper ascender, and continuing down to the feet (in addition to a separate double cowstail). As I understand, this is mainstream among cavers in the UK. I'd rather use my 5.5mm spectra footloops and one side of the double cowstail as my upper ascender safety, but personal preference is a wonderful thing. And BTW, I can vouch for her friend who set up the system. He knows what he's doing.

(ot continued kinda, sorry)

Thank You NZcaver.

I am aware there are infinite number of ways to build systems. I am aware that everyone has lots of personal preferences. I am aware a lot may not like/agree with my system choices. I am aware that the more I learn the more I am likely to mess around with my own system and streamline it for me and will likely take in advice such as given in this thread. I even get that on some things people are worried about safety or whatever (more complication perhaps making things less safe, or let's not get into a rack vs microrack fight, for examples) because I'm guessing maybe ya'all like me and want me alive (awww <3) and in the end want what is best for me!

But, all that said, none of you (other than Tenzin) have *ever met me*. And in getting my system together it wasn't willy nilly, I tried different bits and pieces and things and in how things were working and how things weren't working and the system was designed around that. And my friend (as NZ confirmed is completely competent - I'm sorry I'm guessing you can't get to be the chair of NSS Safety and Techniques without knowing a little something! ) has been great. And he *knows me* and has seen me on rope and together it was done. While I didn't tie every knot in the setup myself, I was there for the whole thing watching and learning and doing.

I may end up actually putting the qas on the long side of the cowstails if it is too bulky and I end up not liking it the way I did it. But know what? I don't mind on extra approx 3 ft of rope. Because for me, the way my brain thinks, having each piece a unique color really really really helps because I think in color and shapes not in words. So an extra bit of rope to, for me, be safer on rope? Totally worth it, dude. And I know that because I know me. And my friend knows this because he knows me.

I only posted all the photos of the various ways we made things adjustable because I didn't realize the question was answered already by NZ in like the 4th post. I read the post but I thought it was just an idea of how to do it. I thought ideas were still being looked for and I just wanted to help, and since I knew it would be hard to put into words (As I said, I think in colors and shapes not in words) how we designed things and we had a few variants of adjustable bits, it was easier to just snap a few quick photos.

Anyway, sorry for all the confusion and I'll just go back to my little corner now.

[chh]

Back to the topic, I used to use an older OR1 adjustable lanyard on a grotto system and I think they used to tie the prussik knot with clove hitches around the eye of the attachment knot. Kinda hard to tell but it looks like they might have changed that to a noose of some kind? Also, if I'm seeing Sungura's stuff right, just tying the barrel knot around the loop in the prussik should work just fine. Though Chad I could see why you might want to avoid this for your particular set up because that would mean you would have to clip two loops to your D ring instead of one and if you missed clipping the prussik loop you could pull it out and load your cowstail rather abruptly.

As for me, I don't really like adjustable setups that create loops or tails. If I need an adjustable attachment lanyard I'd use a purcell prussik or concievably this set up http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8849. Though admitedly the second option I haven't used nearly as much as a purcell. Obviously with a purcell you'd also have to switch to a 2 cowstail system instead of the conventional knotted version.

Also, as far as off topic goes, I'm curious about the benefits of having your harness attachment and footloop made from the same cord. I'm sure if it's as "mainstream" as NZ says there's got to be some benefit to it as opposed to the removable footloop, which is what I currently use. Sungura explained her reasons which I respect, but what can you do with the lanyard + footloop cord that you can't do with a removable one? I've always kept my components seperate. i.e., I can remove my upper ascender and footloop from my system and use them both (or stow them) independantly for something else if need be. I guess you could still keep the upper ascender seperate with a joined footloop but is there anything else?

[Chads93GT]

Clove hitch fed through with a Prusik is correct. I retied it last night. Friggin took 7 feet of accessory cord to do it.

[self-deleted_user]

That is pretty accessory cord!
(where'd you get it?? I needed some accessory cord the other day...)

[Chads93GT]

I buy from onrope1 exclusively. I do business with those most that I have met in person and who were in turn extremely kind to me.

[NZcaver]

Oh yeah, the clove hitch. Forgot about that. Well, I guess I was close with my description.

Also, as far as off topic goes, I'm curious about the benefits of having your harness attachment and footloop made from the same cord.

I'd really like to split this topic, but it's going to take some time so maybe later. I'd like to get outside since the sun is shining and that's rather rare recently!

If you feel like it, go to the UKcaving forum and seach for (or ask for) frog system info. You don't have to be a member to search. Or you can wait for me to move posts around and see if we get any British caver input here.

[self-deleted_user]

I think with the new spam problems there not sure if non-members can view/search or not - I can't remember what bubba did exactly. I just did a search though and didn't find a whole lot as to why just that was how it is done. I can look more later or someone else can. I'll ask some of my UK buddies when they come online later too.

[pub]

Clove hitch fed through with a Prusik is correct. I retied it last night. Friggin took 7 feet of accessory cord to do it.

Chad, have you considered a Klemheist? It looks like you have the Prusik on the long cowstail?

In what situations do you use this added functionality? I haven't been in a situation where I thought I needed an adjustment, but maybe it's one of those things that once you try it you can't imagine having done it any other way. Please elaborate.

Additional length would be handy when passing a rebelay. There have been times when the short cowstail just wouldn’t reach the anchor, carabiner or knot so we’d clip onto the loop.

[potholer]

Also, as far as off topic goes, I'm curious about the benefits of having your harness attachment and footloop made from the same cord.

I think one of the main reasons is/was compactness - only one knot at the ascender rather than two, though there's a historic element there. When footloops were typically tape, or possibly thinner cord than the harness connection, there was more bulk than if using a single piece of rope for the whole. With modern spectra footloops, that's not really an issue, but some people (myself included) carry on with what they're used to, and others imitate what their teachers use.
In reality, practical differences seem fairly small, and much is just a matter of taste or habit.

[chh]

I think one of the main reasons is/was compactness - only one knot at the ascender rather than two, though there's a historic element there. When footloops were typically tape, or possibly thinner cord than the harness connection, there was more bulk than if using a single piece of rope for the whole. With modern spectra footloops, that's not really an issue, but some people (myself included) carry on with what they're used to, and others imitate what their teachers use.
In reality, practical differences seem fairly small, and much is just a matter of taste or habit.

Pretty much what I figured. If I were building a system out of one single diameter rope, I would do the same, but I use a skinny footloop, so as you said, it's a non-issue.

[paul]

Oh yeah, the clove hitch. Forgot about that. Well, I guess I was close with my description.

Also, as far as off topic goes, I'm curious about the benefits of having your harness attachment and footloop made from the same cord.

I'd really like to split this topic, but it's going to take some time so maybe later. I'd like to get outside since the sun is shining and that's rather rare recently!

If you feel like it, go to the UKcaving forum and seach for (or ask for) frog system info. You don't have to be a member to search. Or you can wait for me to move posts around and see if we get any British caver input here.

As a UK caver I can answer this: the reason for having a single cord (usually about 4 metres of 8mm accesory cord) to form the footloop and "safety link" in a Frog SRT system is simply that it provides 4 meters/13.2 feet of 8mm cord which could come in useful in an emergency as opposed to having two separate pieces for the footloop and "safety link".