Torn on which descender to use.

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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Jon » Dec 30, 2010 4:13 pm

Geez more people missing my humor, maybe I need a check up. I know that there is no proven evidence of people spreading WNS, I was just thinking of ways to counter smugness. Like I said if there's a good reason, and in my book "everybody does it this way" or "we've always done it this way", aren't good reasons. I find it odd that people will demand their way on their turf, saying non conformers are arrogant, but when they go to play somewhere else those same people wont play by local ways and still claiming the others to be arrogant. I like Pattons thoughts, whenever someone couldn't justify their thoughts with anything better than "I just don't think ...." He immediately transfered them. His reason? He didn't want people around him who just didn't think!
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby NZcaver » Dec 30, 2010 4:26 pm

Jon wrote:Geez more people missing my humor, maybe I need a check up.

Nah. I guessed you were half-joking, but with some people around here it can be difficult to tell. Especially comments with semi-serious undertones and no smilies.

Like I said if there's a good reason, and in my book "everybody does it this way" or "we've always done it this way", aren't good reasons.

I agree with you. But... when you go caving somewhere else in the world with the locals, there's also a lot to be said for the "when in Rome" attitude. Assuming it's safe, it works, and you're comfortable with it. Sure there's a time and place for BS-ing about gear and techniques (I should know) :wink: but usually it's not when you're in a far-off exotic cave location trying to keep up with your hosts.
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Jon » Dec 31, 2010 12:59 am

Ok I maybe do get semi serious undertones and I forget that the written word isn't the same as the spoken word. As for the smilies ... gave up on them a while back elsewhere. Could never make the blasted things show up. Maybe I should try again.

Hadn't really thought about the keep up with the hosts.... actually one of my pet peeves is a person or persons who you invite (or invite themselves) and then drag butt holding everybody else up as they make it all about them and they are the only ones there. Guess I just get a bit bent when people ridicule people over equipment when they could use diplomacy to get better results and respect.

Now lets see if one of them thing-ah-ma-bobs will take to this post :clap:

Boy I hope the thing shows up cause all I see looks like an STD!!!
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby chh » Dec 31, 2010 3:43 pm

Sounds like the SRT might be better if only because you think you might be quicker with it. I think the best impression you can make (if you're worried about making one) is to just be as efficient as you can.
But if there's no difference really in how the two affect your progression through the cave I wouldn't think it would matter. I always pay more attention to the overall smoothness of a caver than which particular piece of equipment they are carrying. Take whichever one you like better. Never know, you might turn other folks onto Ti frame micro racks! They might just think you're the coolest thing since sliced bread :grin:
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby gdstorrick » Jan 8, 2011 10:44 pm

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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Trooly74 » Jan 10, 2011 4:44 pm

Hi,
I am from Croatia so I can inform you. Here, most of us are using petzl stop and petzl simple or some variation of those. You have no need to vary about that somebody will think that you are strange or whatever. The thing is in case of accident ( hope not ) that, as far as I know, everybody here know how to move wounded caver from rope with stop or some version of bobbin descender. This is technique that we learn and tech here. The rack is not common device for caving in Croatia. I would recommend you to take stop, but as guys sad take both and you can decide what to use when you talk with cavers here.
Have a god time, and I hope you are in good shape. You will need it.

Trooly

Her is some info if you need it,
http://www.speleo.hr/
http://public.carnet.hr/speleo/lukinajama/index_en.html
http://public.carnet.hr/speleo/lukina2010/index-en.html
http://www.speleologija.hr/KS/speleocommittee.html
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http://www.speleo-klub-samobor.hr/
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Trooly74 » Jan 10, 2011 4:58 pm

And consider that we don't do long drops between the rebelays, only if needed, and you will probably be in a group with others :argue: , so "speed" ( I mean fast but safe )at rebelays are important. :big grin:

Trooly :cavingrocks:
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OH! Its dark here. But I can SEE!
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Lava » Jan 15, 2011 4:30 am

Trooly74 wrote:Hi,
I am from Croatia so I can inform you. Here, most of us are using petzl stop and petzl simple or some variation of those. You have no need to vary about that somebody will think that you are strange or whatever. The thing is in case of accident ( hope not ) that, as far as I know, everybody here know how to move wounded caver from rope with stop or some version of bobbin descender. This is technique that we learn and tech here. The rack is not common device for caving in Croatia. I would recommend you to take stop, but as guys sad take both and you can decide what to use when you talk with cavers here.
Have a god time, and I hope you are in good shape. You will need it.

Trooly

Her is some info if you need it,
http://www.speleo.hr/
http://public.carnet.hr/speleo/lukinajama/index_en.html
http://public.carnet.hr/speleo/lukina2010/index-en.html
http://www.speleologija.hr/KS/speleocommittee.html


Thanks for all the info Trooly. Right now I'm leaning heavily toward the Stop. I have decided to put away the rack for the time being and use the Stop exclusively for all caving this year prior to Croatia, which will include one fairly challenging 300m deep cave in early summer. I think the decision will be easy to make after that. Lately I have been trying the Stop out in various situations that I might see in Croatia, obviously including rebelays, j-rappels, and I even got on a piece of 9mm rope and hung a 35 lb (16 kg) water bag below me just to be sure I could easily maintain control of a heavy load on a small diameter rope (piece of cake). I will probably try again with an even heavier load soon, perhaps my wife. :big grin:

I'm in pretty good shape right now from the climbing gym twice a week and cycling to work, but I will be setting up a rope treadmill in my garage soon where I can climb 300' at a time and hang that same heavy water bag below me. Going to shoot for 3x a week.

I've seen three of the links you posted already, as well as watched most of the Croatian caving videos up on the speleologija.hr site. They are quite informative and gave me a good idea of what to expect on my visit. I particularly liked the Velebita video. It looks like you guys eat (and drink) very well while underground. I am certainly looking forward to that!

So Trooly, have you been to Lukina Jama? How about Velebita?
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Trooly74 » Jan 15, 2011 6:50 am

It looks like you guys eat (and drink) very well while underground.

:kewl:
True. Nothing to shame. It is multi day trips to caves like Lukina, Velebita, ..... and others. So little decadency is not a sin.

So Trooly, have you been to Lukina Jama? How about Velebita?

Not jet. When they worked on Lukina during the 90', and Velebita five years ago, I was not in caving jet. And last summer when there was expedition I was on other expedition. Hope to catch it this year. Maybe I'll be there at same time as you will be. Hope to meet you any way. :cavingrocks:
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Lava » Jan 15, 2011 11:14 pm

Trooly74 wrote:
True. Nothing to shame. It is multi day trips to caves like Lukina, Velebita, ..... and others. So little decadency is not a sin.


I'm in total agreement!

Hope to catch it this year. Maybe I'll be there at same time as you will be. Hope to meet you any way. :cavingrocks:


I'll be there the entire two weeks, so no doubt we'll run into each other. :kewl:
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Kendalcaver » Apr 22, 2011 7:06 am

Hi, I'd agree with the guys who say trust your own judgement in this; but I'd love to know what weight difference we're talking about here.

I have a standard 5-bar rack and a Stop; the rack weighs (on the kitchen scales, not the most precise instrument!) 1 lb 1 and threequarter oz, while the Stop weighs 11 and a quarter oz – that's ~37% less.
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby gdstorrick » Apr 22, 2011 3:32 pm

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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Tenzin Beck » Apr 22, 2011 5:21 pm

I am a fan of the Attorack :laughing:
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Kendalcaver » Apr 23, 2011 2:42 am

Quote from gdstorrick:
The tables on my web site give the size and weight of several descenders (and some other things).


Wow! I didn't realize how many types of descender there are. Nice work gathering, collating and tabulating all that information.
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Re: Torn on which descender to use.

Postby Vlad » May 4, 2011 10:17 am

Hi Bruce

The thread is a bit outdated, but I just noticed that you will be going to Lukina jama. I was there at the expedition last year, and might join this one again if I have the time. The cave was great and we had a great time there :D

You are probably quite prepared by now, and you have received good advice from others. The Stop is the better choice, as there are many rebelays and it would be faster passing them. The length between rebelays was not much, varying maybe between 15-30 meters, with some exceptions of course :D
The cave is rigged mostly with 10mm ropes and some 9mm, some are new, some old. I used a Petzl Stop like most of the Croatians and it worked well for all of the ropes. I don't think you will have any problems with the expedition leader, he is a nice guy.
You should also bring a foot ascender as it really helps when you carry a heavy bag, and there will be lots of heavy bags :wink:

I'm from Bulgaria btw, and we use mostly simple bobbins, less racks or Stops. Cavers here used racks a lot some years ago, but now we are going mostly for simples.

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