BMS Micro Rack VS. Petzl Simple

[Cody JW]

I posted on another thread about a weight range that the mfgr. assumes you are in the design of things . I also ride bicycles in the summer and have found that with expensive lightweight bicycle (road) components that I am too heavy and will break things early . They assume that if you are over 200 pounds you likely will not be into serious road riding . You are more likely to be on the couch eating chips and drinking beer and watching NASCAR and not riding , so you situation is not considered in their design. I always wondered if the same is true with racks? Look around when you cave , how many big guys do you see on rope?? I know any trip I am on I am normally the heaviest in the group. I also Kayak some and have seen a weight range of just over 220 for alot of kayaks. I find in alot of forums people who weigh 80 pounds less than me tell me " get proper training" on things I have used for years even decades thinking that is my problem when the issue is physics.

[self-deleted_user]

It seems to be more of the same ol' mentality "if you aren't x weight you aren't healthy/fit/in shape". Seriously I run into that bullshit all the time. When really the truth is any size or shape can be very healthy/fit/in shape just like any size or shape can be totally unhealthy. </semirelated rant>

[Cavernuke]

...They assume that if you are over 200 pounds you likely will not be into serious road riding . You are more likely to be on the couch eating chips and drinking beer and watching NASCAR and not riding , so you situation is not considered in their design. I always wondered if the same is true with racks?

One of the advantages the 6-bar rack has over other types of descenders is the ability to match the friction delivered to suit the user and the conditions. No other piece of equipment can match this ability.

Nuke

[Cody JW]

It seems to be more of the same ol' mentality "if you aren't x weight you aren't healthy/fit/in shape". Seriously I run into that bullshit all the time. When really the truth is any size or shape can be very healthy/fit/in shape just like any size or shape can be totally unhealthy. </semirelated rant>

Agree, I swim 4 miles a week ( 50 laps nonstop each time I go for 3 days a week) and have for 27 years.I ride 50 to 60 miles at a time on my bike in the summer and have been on a couple rides over 100 miles. Been riding bikes for over 30 years. Caving since 81. Walk my dogs each day for over 2 miles at a time and have for over 20 years. And I am still 5 foot 9 and 220lbs. My doctor said "you need more exercise", I said if I get any more I will need to quit my job to have the time. Gotta love the one size fits all mentality. I agree with Nuke also, the six bar and the 8 is the only device I trust at my weight. I also love the skinny guys who say "why are you using all six bars". I say fill your pack with lead and strap a 5 gallon bucket of paint on your seat and go down on five, then come and talk to me.

[Chads93GT]

I also love the skinny guys who say "why are you using all six bars". I say fill your pack with lead and strap a 5 gallon bucket of paint on your seat and go down on five, then come and talk to me.

lol this

[self-deleted_user]

To be honest this whole discussion is making me possibly rethink and want to try a 6-bar rack before I purchase one. I love the 4bar dual hyperbar I have been using though...I want to try it without using the hyperbar though and see how fast that goes now that I'm a bit more used to it to see how fast it really is. I certainly am thinking for longer drops a 6bar would be safer! Although, I'm also learning to put a...ohshoot what is it called...French wrap on it? so it jams up the bars if I loose something so I'd think that would help with the safety issues of the 4-bar, yeah?

[Chads93GT]

If your french wrap is jamming up the bars, its too long and isnt working right. A french wrap is like a prusic where it grips the rope and stops you if you let go of the rope.

Just get a 6 bar rack and you wont have to deal with it as you can have "too many bars" but spread them apart to get the friction right. another guy I cave with uses a french wrap with an aluminum 6 bar, but he thinks the wrap is what he should use to control his speed, not the bars.

Thats all fine and dandy until the cordage on the wrap burns through eventually and then you free fall because you dont understand how to control your speed with the bars.

I would never use an autostop/french wrap on anything other than a figure 8. but then again I simply double wrap a figure 8 and it gives me tons of friction and I can lock it up on the fly by letting the rope coil over its self when rappelling.

Anyway...........yeah.

[self-deleted_user]

No, I meant, like if I let go of the rope it would get jammed up and stop a freefall. Which...is like...a good thing for me considering my instinct is to let go of the rope. Don't ask, I dunno how I got blessed with reverse common sense instincts.

[NZcaver]

im 6'3 190 lbs, give or take depending on the day.

I'm at around 190-something myself, and a long frame BMS micro does me well for virtually everything using 10-11mm ropes. But I rarely use thinner ropes anyway. Remember you can use your non braking/rope-gripping hand to push up on the bottom bar and increase friction, just like with a longer rack. And of course wrapping the rope over the hyper bar makes a great friction multiplier. Getting over sharp edges doesn't seem to be more problematic for me with a micro rack versus any other descender. Alternative rigging methods can help minimize some of those problem edges too.

The J-frame rack is good for a lot of things, but arguably not so efficient for negotiating rebelays and doing changeovers and other mid-rope maneuvers. The bobbin does great with these, certainly better than a figure 8 (which was never designed for SRT caving in the first place). But everything has its pro and cons, and personal preference is a wonderful thing. Like Caleb's 6 bar rack, mine also stays in storage most of the time. But if I was regularly doing deep (~300+) single-pitch pits, that might change.

One of the advantages the 6-bar rack has over other types of descenders is the ability to match the friction delivered to suit the user and the conditions. No other piece of equipment can match this ability.

I agree the 6-bar rack is great for varying friction, but I wouldn't say "no other piece of equipment can match this ability." Every hear of controlled rate descenders like the Troll Allp? You can fine tune your friction with one of these even better than a rack, but few people use them for caving.

[Cody JW]

If your french wrap is jamming up the bars, its too long and isnt working right. A french wrap is like a prusic where it grips the rope and stops you if you let go of the rope.

Just get a 6 bar rack and you wont have to deal with it as you can have "too many bars" but spread them apart to get the friction right. another guy I cave with uses a french wrap with an aluminum 6 bar, but he thinks the wrap is what he should use to control his speed, not the bars.

Thats all fine and dandy until the cordage on the wrap burns through eventually and then you free fall because you dont understand how to control your speed with the bars.

I would never use an autostop/french wrap on anything other than a figure 8. but then again I simply double wrap a figure 8 and it gives me tons of friction and I can lock it up on the fly by letting the rope coil over its self when rappelling. Hold on Chad, I thought I was the ONLY one using an 8 for vertical caving .Or at least that was the impression I seem to of got from the "vertical establishment". I am to this day , still trying to figure out how I am still alive. While I am at it I will open up another can of worms- If Sangria is looking for a way to control an out of control rappel she might look into the spelean shunt. Contrary to what some in the " establishment" say you can train yourself to stop a rappel that you may not be able to stop with bars with a shunt. I have done it many times in a controlled situation over water. Some may say, "it wont work" but I feel any option is better than no option.If you just have your rack you have nothing else. In an ideal world you will not get out of control, but guess what .The accident reports are full of them , and I am guessing those who are injured or dead would of loved to of had some other option when screaming down the rope.

Anyway...........yeah.

[Chads93GT]

Ehh I have a black diamond aluminum 8 that I have had since rock climbing. When we discovered that our project was now going to involve a 78' pit entrance, I had no gear other than my rock climbing gear and my rock climbing knot books. I figure I could rappel on a figure 8 and an autostop (webbing clipped into the leg loop, wrapped around 3 or 4 times and clipped back in) and live. I did. I really dont like using a single wrapped figure 8.

Anyway, I then had to figure out how to climb out. My first 3 or 5 climbs out of that 80 foot pit were on Bachman knots. I would have used prusic's but I liked how the bachman gave me an artificial handle to use . That is how I got my start. No one taught me anything, I trained myself in the back yard, repeatedly, over and over and over, then I moved into applying it in pits. On the first trip I was questioning wether or not I was going to be able to get out, but the higher and higher I climbed, the more I realized it was working.

Anyway, I'll use an 8 if I accidentally leave my rack at home, or if its my rope and its a short drop. I have a few ropes I can choose from to rig pits in the area. I generally wont use my 8 on someone elses rope as I do know it will coil their rope.

That being said, I do 99.9% of my vertical on my rack. The guys and I practice tie off's regularly, we do changeovers all the time, I can do changeovers with no problem with this 6 bar rack due to the fact that I am 6'3". Even the guy who is 5'3" has no problem doing a changeover with the 6 bar rack, so I dont buy into the premise that a 6 bar rack isn't ideal for changeovers unlike a bobbin or mini rack. Rebelays........well ............ we don't have any rebelay pits where I live in missouri and I have yet to do them in TAG, however, I have practiced the concept and I don't see why I would have a problem with a 6 bar rack.

Anyway.......I do use an 8, first used ATC's, then the 8, then the rack. The rack is definately the cadillac.

[Anonymous_Coward]

6-bar racks are fine for efficient changeovers IF you do them differently than how you learned with shorter devices.

Rebelays? Never had a problem with a 6-bar rack. The whole "6-bar racks not good for rebelays" is a myth perpetuated by the short device people IMO. If the rebelay loop in the rope was too short, you might have issues with the 6-bar, but that is more of a rigging problem than a descender problem.

I use a micro-rack often, but I agree it does not function the same way as a 6-bar. With the micro, I have two speeds, 4-bar speed and hyperbar speed. It is probably a weight thing. I fall in the "ahem" larger caver category. For me, pushing upward on the lower bar of the micro does basically nothing.

With the 6-bar your rappelling speed is almost infinitely more variable. You have 4-bar, 5-bar, 6-bar speed and each speed can be further fine-tuned with bar spread. Once you get used to that kind of speed control on rope, it is hard to think that the other devices really measure up. I use the micro when I have to carry it a long way, like backpacking trips and canyoneering. For any trip with gritty ropes or multiple types of ropes on the same trip, it is hard to beat the 6-bar for versatility.

[NZcaver]

6-bar racks are fine for efficient changeovers IF you do them differently than how you learned with shorter devices.

Yeah, good point Andy. Can't fault you on that one.

Chad - my first underground descents were on a figure 8 too. Won't tell you how I got back out, but "self-taught" sums it up pretty well. The need for vertical training was my initial reason for joining the mainstream caving community.

It seems the original poster has decided to go with the micro rack, which should work just fine. Like Scott said, the longer frame micro would be the one to get.

[Chads93GT]

Damn, this thread makes me want to go buy a double hyper bar short framed mini rack. I was wondering through, a mini rack would kick ass on trips like McBrides, but can you do 2 ropes through a mini rack? When we did the trip with Bill Putnam, we used his 300' 9mm rope. We cut it in half, then those were 2 sections we used on all the drops in mcbrides. I realize you can rig the ropes in such a way that you can rappel on one strand, then pull down on the other side at the bottom for those with stops and mini racks. Just wondering.......


Also, ive only used a mini rack once, with the top hyper bar. I didnt have a 2nd hyper bar on it, but how is that used? Do you literally go from bar 4, to the top hyper bar, around the bottom hyper, back over the top to the brake hand? weird........

[NZcaver]

Also, ive only used a mini rack once, with the top hyper bar. I didnt have a 2nd hyper bar on it, but how is that used? Do you literally go from bar 4, to the top hyper bar, around the bottom hyper, back over the top to the brake hand? weird........

Most of the folks I know with the double hyper bars mostly use the bottom one because it's slightly more convenient when locking off. But if you're using a single 9mm or other thinner rope, I suppose you could wrap both hyper bars for extra friction.

I've done short descents on a micro with double 10mm, but it's a little tight. 11 would be pushing it. Probably have to do the biner block pulldown method for that.