Warning, Cavers Below!

[NWSurveyor]

I’ve done a bit of vertical caving, but it was in a locked cave. I’m planning a trip this winter which includes about 3 drops. Though this cave is not well known to the GP, it is not locked. I fear that some local might explore the horizontal aspects down to the first drop, then seeing our rigging there, they either decide that they are good sams and should remove it so no kids try to descend or that simply, they want the gear. So my thought is to leave a sign on the safety line explaining something like, CAVERS BELOW! THIS GEAR IS ESSENTIAL FOR OUR SAFE RETURN TO THE SURFACE. PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB! Has anyone had a bad experience with gear being disturbed or taken? Suggestions on some sign language? Suggestions on other actions I could take to safeguard our rigging? We are trying to line up a Cave Watch but so far that has been a bust.
Mike

[Marduke]

If at all possible, I would leave someone as entrance control. I have seen several occasions where other people have disturbed, or outright removed rigging when it was not guarded.

Rednecks like to steal shiny things, and a sign is unlikely to stop them.

I should add that this sort of thing is why you should always have a reliable callout person who will send help if need be.

[rebelfirefighter]

I heard once of cavers decending into a cave in Mexico and having their ropes cut because the locals thought they were devil worshipers and seeking ancient Mayan gold. I think it was Cheve Cave.

[Stridergdm]

I heard once of cavers decending into a cave in Mexico and having their ropes cut because the locals thought they were devil worshipers and seeking ancient Mayan gold. I think it was Cheve Cave.

Don't know about that one, but do know in our club archives a similar story, but it was the Federales who didn't know better. Took them I think 2-3 days to find a translator.

In any case, in my limited experience here in the states, have never had an issue. But I have heard of others who have done so.

I think a lot would depend on the cave and location.

[Mudduck]

Shame your not in tag. Id be glad to stand ground for you.(with the hope of future reciprocation of course). I never drop anything without someone up top. Like said earlier, too many rednecks and spiteful hunters.

[chh]

A rope should be enough of a sign. I've never had a problem with it. But I think a callout person is the best course of action, in any case, regardless of the reason for your late (or lack of) return...
Unless of course you are going into a cave with a vertical entrance that completely floods. Then it's good to have a person at the entrance. These don't seem to be that common though.

Your other option of course is to keep to caves with natural "nerd gates". I've always felt safer in vetical caves in which the first drop was a ways inside the cave.

All in all, I'd be inclined to say, "don't worry about it."

[NZcaver]

You could try tying the end of the rope to the bottom of the pit. Otherwise leaving somebody at the top might be more prudent than a sign. Depends on the local situation, I guess.

[Amazingracer]

Having had a rope pulled up on me before (then thrown down the pit in a tangled mess we could just barely reach). I always tie my rope off firm to something on the bottom.

I do that for two reasons. First is to keep some one up top from trying to pull it up. (they could always cut or derig it but thats a different story) And second by having it taught on the bottom it keeps other cavers from riding down the rope. That sounds mena, but what if you ride my rope down, i never see you in cave, and i pull my rope up before you return?

[NWSurveyor]

Thank you all for your insight. Excellent points!
Here is some background on the cave:
1. The first drop is about 600' (HZ) from the entrance.
2. The cave is about 4 miles from a snow park (winter/hunting season).
3. The snow park is about 20 miles from the nearest town.
4. The nearest town is mostly inhabited and/or visited by deer and elk hunters.
5. It appears we will have to rig a multiple anchor system with traditional climbing protection for this first drop. The potential for leaving expensive and shiny gear is high.
The problem: From the bottom of the drop, there is no way to know for certain that Joe Hunter didn’t compromise the anchors without posting an armed guard. JH sees a cam, knows its cool, decides he wants it, leaves everything else in tack. We pull on the rope to feel it’s anchor and rig to climb... on a compromised anchor system. Pong! Twang! Whoosh! Thud.
I see no other option. We will either employ a watch or push on to other adventures.
Again, thank you all!
mike

[paul]

I've experienced someone tampering with a rope and leaving it in a dangerous state, which is worse than removing it altogether. And to add insult to injury, the reason they had removed it was so that they could steal someone's belongings!

This was a few years ago at the Gouffre Berger in France. The first drop is a short one of maybe 20 feet, still in daylight and we had a short rope running from a tree down into the surface depression tied off to the anchor for this pitch, so that we could clip into it when getting on and off the top. A group of us had walked to the cave entrance through woods wearing "normal" clothing and carying our caving gear and changed on the surface, leaving the bags containing our clothing at the bottom of the drop. Most of us pushed the bags into small gaps so they were out of sight but one was left in plain view.

After a trip underground, I returned a day or so later and found the rope was not tied to the tree in the same way. Puzzling over this, I clipped on to the rope and carefully approached the head of the pitch and noticed that the rope had simply been looped through the carabiner on the 'spit' anchor and sort of twisted around the rope so that it remained in position unless it was pulled with a little force.

Puzzled as to why this had been done, I retied the rope as it should be and dropped down the pitch. There I found several bent metal tent pegs (there are quite a few old lost pegs around nearby on the surface due to the requirement to have someone at the entrance all the time when there are others underground). It turned out that the bent tent pegs had been used as makeshift fishing hooks on the end of the tampered-with rope used to fish out the bag of clothing I mentioned before. Although we had someone by the entrance when there were cavers underground, someone had obviously visited the cave while the entrance was unmanned (although maybe an hour's walk from the nearest parking place and not easy to find of you don't know the route, there are often non-cavers turning up for a look due to the cave being fairly well known) while there was no one underground and stole the bag (we were in and out of the cave over a period of several days as it required some days to rig, some days to actually visit the cave and then a day or so to de-rig).

[ian mckenzie]

We almost never see anyone else around where we cave, but there are a couple of popular caves that sometimes see 'tourist' cavers. For these, our club made up a business-card-sized, plastic-coated tag that can be clipped onto the anchor carabiner which asks visitors not to use our equipment which may be removed at any time without notice, or to tamper or remove it as our safety depends on it being undisturbed. The language is friendly and informative and includes our club logo and webside address and encourages the reader to email us for information on our activities.

[Anonymous_Coward]

We almost never see anyone else around where we cave, but there are a couple of popular caves that sometimes see 'tourist' cavers.

Ian, I imagine you would want to leave such a card at the pit in Cadomin Cave! We didn't have one but luckily the only spelunkers we ran into were very friendly, including a giant rubber rat. I also snagged a very nice large Canadian flag. This was early July 2008, and apparently someone had quite a Canada Day celebration at the entrance. I found the flag tangled in some bushes just down from the entrance. It made a nice addition to my garage wall decorations.

[hunter]

In sketchy areas a surface watch is my normal option, in third world countries we very frequently pay a guide to guard the entry.

I have on occasion put a rebelay a little ways down where it would be difficult to reach without equipment but is close enough I can see the main anchor. On major trips where we have climbing equipment this has the added advantage that it wouldn't be too bad to climb out from the rebelay if we had to (hasn't happened to me yet)

James

[NWSurveyor]

Shame your not in tag. Id be glad to stand ground for you.(with the hope of future reciprocation of course). I never drop anything without someone up top. Like said earlier, too many rednecks and spiteful hunters.

I'll look you up when I'm in TAG!

[Cody JW]

I know the old saying " never say never" BUT, I have been caving 30 years and vertical for 25 and never had any body mess with a rope when down in a pit. In Indiana, Kentucky , TAG , Mexico (once) with a guide up top.Some on this forum have been around much longer than I. A few exceptions are maybe Natural Well, right next to a state park hiking trail.Unless it is right next to an area where it is likely non -cavers will walk up on. I do not fear. I have read about this happening in Mexico during Huatula exp.Some third world areas local may think you are devil worshipers or something like that.Most of the time I do not worry about it.