another annoying rappel question??

[puffadder]

Here it is, the final summation from my view point.there are some really cool and good things said throughout all of this.I have to say . good stuff..Ok,so ,where are we? Axis has nothing to do with it.spacers? no effect.rope? %99.9 sure the rope is the culprit.Follow me here.I 1st noticed the rack problem with this particular rope. I don't think it exists with my PMI ropes.I believe the very suppleness of the rope is such that,every s turn thru each bar intensifies drag..Yesterday we went back to cemetery. There were 5 of us,and we set up ropes on both anchors.I am the only one with a rack..The deal here was to push further in that our last attempt.we launched in at 100.we brought a spare rope 30' for after earls ledge.proved to be very useful for us.anyway..I was the last in.on my 12mm. 2 others went down it,on 8 backed up by klemheists..works very very very well.did a lot of experimenting with that over the years...still,it is no contest to a rack.just because of the variable nature of the rack.My turn. All bars engaged,spacers on.back up off the lip and..nothing.zero movement..its no use..the bars are spread..its just not happening.drop a bar.spread them.very very slow.it took me forever to get down..now,before I go further,it is odd...I figured I would sail down from the start,rope tension was there.but it got much easier the lower I got..the exact inverse of the ascent.on the ascent,you have to fight the rope stretch or just do a good job of trapping the rope.It gets easier the higher you get.The exact opposite happened on the rappel.My conclusion..I concentarted on spreading all bars..it didnt matter.I thought''are these stupid spacers making this worse?thats when i thought..I have to drop another bar.I did.I stopped at the 2nd ledge,and took precautions..then dropped a bar.rode the rest of the way on 4 bars.It did the trick.So,knowing this? That on this rope it is ok and preferable to ride on 4 .what role then do the spacers play? none.The other alternative is to make the spacers a little longer..So ,such adaptations..are they really needed? They are for this rope.but probably not for the others.especially my favourite..a 9mm static.Unfortunately this12mm is my longest rope.So today I did add another set.that will be the last thing I do.If the problem persists..spacers truly serve no function,and 4 bars is the way to go..I have video of everybody else from yesterday.good stuff.I swear it took me forever.and was very very hard.until i switched to 4 bars.I wish I had done that from the start..thats the beauty of variable friction.so despite this ridiculoous problem,I am very much aproponent of the rack.even though one of my friends sailed down it in about 15 seconds..he and I are climbing buddies.

[puffadder]

by the way..after we found the register,we moved west..the quest was on to find the waterfalls.damn it all.we followed passages that ened in domes,or dead ended.what the hell?from the big room go west..one of our group said''lets go up the breakdown''.we did.and did.2 of went further on..they said..they came to a huge void,but could hear waterfalls.we never found them.swe think we went thru the guano room..it has a serious sloping roof?.. or ''waynes wall''..written on a wall.we had to be on the right track..ps..earls ledge..no joke.I did not want to do it.question.why do it all? why not just rap down.either way you end up in the big room.Is the earls ledge death crawl relly needed?

[chh]

Is the earls ledge death crawl relly needed?

If I had a nickle......

[puffadder]

Literally..I could hang there in the ''l'' with no hands,and not move..bounce on the thing..nothing.That would be great for some applications,but downward progress.hell no.In any event,today i decided to check into some things.1st.the rack is smc.I was surprised to find out smc is in Seattle.Surprised because I have always associated the rack with caving,and seattle with Ranier.I am familiar with liberty ridge and a few other aspects .well.ok.So,there are different lengths of racks,apparantly designed for long drops or other uses.There are u'' and there are j.There are micro,and stainless and aluminum.And then ,there is the offset eye,angled.Mine is 18'',straight line j,6 bars stainless.Looking at the bars themselves..hollowed out u's angled and yes I have the grooves.On a 12mm..there really isnt a whole lot of room for bar manipulation with 6 bars .Drag or friction really is unholy.At least on this rope.so.5.not much better.add spacers.no difference.enlarge spacers..mabey,or drop the 5th.I felt comfortable with 4 bars.Now ,lets get away from the rack for just second..compare it to..an ATC type..Not a rigid black diamond style,but Trango or something similar.1st and foremost..here you have a tool thats dual purpose.Not just a rappel device but a BELAY..cool...The 8 can be used also but in comparison ..sux..However,the Trangos design takes into consideration all sorts of aspects.It has 2 slots,and the real beauty of it; It is reversible.It has 2 slots..you can use 2 ropes.So if you are new,or just plain not psyched about rappelling,2 ropes will slow you way down.Pretty neat.But even cooler than that,want greater friction? reverse the orientation.smallvs large orifice.Designed for theat very reason.How much speed do you want? how much friction? maxed out..2 ropes say 10.5mmcoming out on small orifice.Good luck.So,initally..that super great friction has its advantage..slow control going over the edge.However,the bad news is;you're stuck with that.This is where trial and error,or practice,and lots of it,with or without belays..come into play.One thing that has to be said..That trango,or atc,etc..is designed for usage inconjunction with dynamics.For someone really not familiar,take the stiffest static line you have,and bend it into a ''u''.Feed that into a blackdiamond.You cant.what does work is to thread it before tyeing into the anchors.Most static ropes are just too stiff.Even my BWII has a very hard time fitting thru the slot.Now,11mm ,10.5.9.8,anything down to UIAA single rope no 1.The same orientation that works on rappel also works on belay.Need to belay a heavy person? Reverse the atc.Want a fast rappel? 1 strand through large opening.I use that.or the 8,.I would be interested to see if an eye thats offset makes a difference? Or ditching these bars and trying some totally round bars...I have my friends,use safety knots.It can be the autoblock,or it can be the klemheist..The funny thing is,I have never once used them myself.Not in actual usge anyway.But we have discovered what works and when.All but 2 of us use the knots,and the guys who do..see just fast and sweet a true rappel can be.But,and I mean this...Rappelling is infinetely more dangerous than climbing.Stupid things happen.Trip on the rope as you are heading to the edge.Unless you have death grip,you might let go.Take a hard pendelum..same thing.This is one aspect I love to hate.So while the knots may not be suave and debonair.They are the safe ones.Diameter makes all the diffence in the world.11mm,5 mm cord..trial and error..too many wraps and it can seriously stop you.Solution..how many wraps and what diameter? Onmy 12mm..it is 7mm and 3 wraps. Know what though?Thats with perlon,or any cordage.1/2 the diameter is near optimal.Keyword is cordage.Webbing is the ticket.And yet none of them like the way it looks.It slides easier.is easier to unload,is in fact..superior to cordage...so,the other day..3 of them went down,on 8's backed up with knots.They know what they are doing.and the descents went well.albeit mabey a little slow.Then Kevin O,normal 8,nothing else...backs off,drops.5 seconds later.he's down.I am last.18 hrs later,fighting drag,hating this stupid rack.It boiled down to..f##$% this..what will happen with 4 bars..Success. Success is what happened.I am convinced ,the rope just was not moving.until i went to 4.Wonder what it woiuld do on 2? No,really..wish I could retire this rope.but its the only one I have thats 220' continuous.Here comes the nxt question;how does the PIT rope really compare against other statics or against this BWII? Any feedback,whether it is positive or negative is always welcome..and it can be on anything at all..knots,racks,death,whatever..share the knowledge,learn from experience.

[LukeM]

You have a lot of questions that could be answered by books like On Rope, Vertical (see link below), and Alpine Caving Techniques. These have a density and breadth of information that is much greater than anything you'll find on Cavechat. Also, when you're in new territory it's really best to have someone tell you or read that something will or won't work before you try it. You're using your best judgment, and it's working out, but it's nice to have the assurance that something has definitely been done successfully before.

With that in mind, if you find a way to hook up with some experienced vertical cavers you'll learn way way faster and better than you will asking a few questions here and there on a forum. This is just my advice.

http://cavediggers.com/vertical/

[Scott McCrea]

Muskrat1, I'd love to help, but I can not read your post. It's gibberish. Grammar certainly doesn't need to be perfect, but we need to at least be able to understand what you are looking for. Make a list. Use some paragraphs. Something.

[Anonymous_Coward]

I also am interested in what you have to say, but when I see those huge paragraphs with all the lines run together, I can't hack it. I have to skip your posts. They make my eyes bug out when I try to read them.

Can you help us out? Try writing as if it was an English paper. We won't grade you, but we want to be able to understand what you are writing.

What point were you trying to make about racks vs. ATC?

[puffadder]

You are seeing something I am not seeing..Is there a disconnect here? There may be a problem I have to get windstream to check on..because the problems you describe are not present here.Paragraphs,sentences,are well spaced..But,if it is something I am doing,mabey not hitting the space bar hard enough or what not,I need to know because this is symptomatic of malicious spyware.It is curious,because this is the only site I have any feedback from.On the other hand.. I am now 50.Eyesight is diminishing.Patience diminished a long time ago.Intellectual capacity to care is occurring NOW.. Now,''hook up with someone experienced''.One of my paddling buddies has been involved in caving for more than 25 years.He issued Jesus his NSS numbers.If I chose to,I would ask him whatever questions I want.There is no one with more experience than he has .I am not interested in that,nor am I really sure I care about being in a grotto.Cliques kill independence,and independence insures fun.My friends and I are our own mini grotto.We have gone into pits now with zero knowledge of what lies beyond the edge. No maps,no idea how deep it is,nothing.Just going in blind.Thats 90% of the fun.Those were the days.I have evolved.Now, we have maps and a little knowledge.This does not diminish the thrill at all.As a matter of fact..the days of dropping into a hole just for fun are almost gone. Let me tell you..self reliance is the key,and since there is safety in numbers..grottos may kill that self reliance.every one of us is aware that if he runs into trouble..he had best handle it.Yes ,rescue may be there,but you must behave as if that just is not so..for the truth is..it may not be.Self styled elitists evoke nothing but pure empathy from me.Onward.. How does the atc compare to the rack.?There are a lot of high dollar toys out there.All of which are basically a spin on something already in use.Look at the newest 8's out there.Bizarre things.Rock exotica I believe makes the ears to the side.Thats awesome.But we are talking about the simple,lightweight trango pyramids,etc.The rack,to me has as its primary feature;the ability to have variable friction.LETS COMPARE ATTRIBUTES.Trango,dual purpose.belay and rappel.Can the same be said for the rack?You going to lead a 5.8 on belay by a rack?.The rack;can handle >diameters of rope easier than the ATC..My 12mm Blue water can not fit through one of the apertures.Nor does it work at all on a grigri..So,the rack can handle large ropes.Only one (1) UIAA rated single rope at a time.You all are familiar with UIAA numbers.The ATC. ;Can handle 2 UIAA single ropes..So,that daunting drop,?run 2 ropes through for greater friction.Unfortunately ,you will be stuck with that until the bottom.And this my friends,leads me to the point.Reverse the atc.This is why it has 2 different size apertures..I know this because I have trusted my life to the atc for many many years.(the 8 is even better still)What's the normal dynamic rope? Used to be 10.5mm.Thats hellafunny.Sterling came out with a''radical'' 9.8 a ways back.Used to be,the rope length was 145'.Hellafunny as well.Someone had the idea of pushing that out to 160 and greater.Point being..the established norm is not the best route to go.Ideally,a stance would be from 165' to the next.Safeguarding against fall factor 2 on the way.Yes kids,there is a hell of a lot experience here..so before you snipe..dont shoot yourself in the foot first.Now,the rack;weighs a ton.the atc..an ounce.Theres talk of''the rack works well in ice.I would not know that.Insufficient experience there.I can tell you from 1st hand experience my devices do not work well in bad conditions. Glaciers are problematic.Thats what variable friction is all about.Thats why on a device like the atc, (2) 11mm ropes run thru the small apertures will work.Understand;you cannot deduct for drag..Just like the problem I ran into;..the friction on my rack was way too much..Rope way too supple too..I like this rack.Can see its potential.When I first bought it,I used it on my 75' 11mm PMI. PMI makes 2-3 styles of rope,yes? max wear,sport,pit.This 11mm is very rigid.Almost like a cable.So,when we first started out in this ''caving thing'' the drops were small.No problems existed with the rack.Next,came a little more depth.This brought out my other PMI.. 9mm 150' .This rope is way different from the other.Is soft,can make knots.It bends.Due to the diameter of this rope,makes for fast rappells.I had no problems with this rope,had no need for spacers.Not sure I would want them..This brings us to the finale.The longest I have in static ,is 220'. It is the BW.This is where the problems began.Currently,I doubled the spacers.there is greater space between the top bar and number 2.I may do away with this.I know now that it is safe on 4 bars.And if i gain too much speed..add a bar.Its easy.Let me tell you though.I really did hang there on the lip of the ledge.bouncing on the rope to get moving.I was pissed.''expensive p.o.s''. toss it like a frisbee..who the f$# needs this?Really..

[Chads93GT]

You are seeing something I am not seeing..Is there a disconnect here? There may be a problem I have to get windstream to check on..because the problems you describe are not present here.Paragraphs,sentences,are well spaced..But,if it is something I am doing,mabey not hitting the space bar hard enough or what not,I need to know because this is symptomatic of malicious spyware.It is curious,because this is the only site I have any feedback from.On the other hand.. I am now 50.Eyesight is diminishing.Patience diminished a long time ago.Intellectual capacity to care is occurring NOW.. Now,''hook up with someone experienced''.One of my paddling buddies has been involved in caving for more than 25 years.He issued Jesus his NSS numbers.If I chose to,I would ask him whatever questions I want.There is no one with more experience than he has .I am not interested in that,nor am I really sure I care about being in a grotto.Cliques kill independence,and independence insures fun.My friends and I are our own mini grotto.We have gone into pits now with zero knowledge of what lies beyond the edge. No maps,no idea how deep it is,nothing.Just going in blind.Thats 90% of the fun.Those were the days.I have evolved.Now, we have maps and a little knowledge.This does not diminish the thrill at all.As a matter of fact..the days of dropping into a hole just for fun are almost gone. Let me tell you..self reliance is the key,and since there is safety in numbers..grottos may kill that self reliance.every one of us is aware that if he runs into trouble..he had best handle it.Yes ,rescue may be there,but you must behave as if that just is not so..for the truth is..it may not be.Self styled elitists evoke nothing but pure empathy from me.Onward.. How does the atc compare to the rack.?There are a lot of high dollar toys out there.All of which are basically a spin on something already in use.Look at the newest 8's out there.Bizarre things.Rock exotica I believe makes the ears to the side.Thats awesome.But we are talking about the simple,lightweight trango pyramids,etc.The rack,to me has as its primary feature;the ability to have variable friction.LETS COMPARE ATTRIBUTES.Trango,dual purpose.belay and rappel.Can the same be said for the rack?You going to lead a 5.8 on belay by a rack?.The rack;can handle >diameters of rope easier than the ATC..My 12mm Blue water can not fit through one of the apertures.Nor does it work at all on a grigri..So,the rack can handle large ropes.Only one (1) UIAA rated single rope at a time.You all are familiar with UIAA numbers.The ATC. ;Can handle 2 UIAA single ropes..So,that daunting drop,?run 2 ropes through for greater friction.Unfortunately ,you will be stuck with that until the bottom.And this my friends,leads me to the point.Reverse the atc.This is why it has 2 different size apertures..I know this because I have trusted my life to the atc for many many years.(the 8 is even better still)What's the normal dynamic rope? Used to be 10.5mm.Thats hellafunny.Sterling came out with a''radical'' 9.8 a ways back.Used to be,the rope length was 145'.Hellafunny as well.Someone had the idea of pushing that out to 160 and greater.Point being..the established norm is not the best route to go.Ideally,a stance would be from 165' to the next.Safeguarding against fall factor 2 on the way.Yes kids,there is a hell of a lot experience here..so before you snipe..dont shoot yourself in the foot first.Now,the rack;weighs a ton.the atc..an ounce.Theres talk of''the rack works well in ice.I would not know that.Insufficient experience there.I can tell you from 1st hand experience my devices do not work well in bad conditions. Glaciers are problematic.Thats what variable friction is all about.Thats why on a device like the atc, (2) 11mm ropes run thru the small apertures will work.Understand;you cannot deduct for drag..Just like the problem I ran into;..the friction on my rack was way too much..Rope way too supple too..I like this rack.Can see its potential.When I first bought it,I used it on my 75' 11mm PMI. PMI makes 2-3 styles of rope,yes? max wear,sport,pit.This 11mm is very rigid.Almost like a cable.So,when we first started out in this ''caving thing'' the drops were small.No problems existed with the rack.Next,came a little more depth.This brought out my other PMI.. 9mm 150' .This rope is way different from the other.Is soft,can make knots.It bends.Due to the diameter of this rope,makes for fast rappells.I had no problems with this rope,had no need for spacers.Not sure I would want them..This brings us to the finale.The longest I have in static ,is 220'. It is the BW.This is where the problems began.Currently,I doubled the spacers.there is greater space between the top bar and number 2.I may do away with this.I know now that it is safe on 4 bars.And if i gain too much speed..add a bar.Its easy.Let me tell you though.I really did hang there on the lip of the ledge.bouncing on the rope to get moving.I was pissed.''expensive p.o.s''. toss it like a frisbee..who the f$# needs this?Really..

1 huge paragraph and no space between periods as the sentence ends. I dont know what you just typed but I am not reading it. wow.

[Marduke]

With your anti-elitist attitude, and contempt for obtaining actual training, I will simply wait for you to show up in caving-related death report...

If you are lucky enough to survive the fall you will inevitably take, an elite cave rescue group will be the ones to save you, and they got that way by intensive training with people who know what they are actually doing.

Going with organized groups is MUCH safer, because the people train each other in new techniques every trip. People become more self reliant because they learn more techniques and gear, not less!!

SRT is a big boy sport where SMALL mistakes kill, and your ramblings are at this point little more than a small child who thinks it's more fun to ignore his parents and thinks he knows better.

[Chads93GT]

I punished myself and reread everyting.

I see you have problems getting started to the lip while on rope. Something about 4 bars. If you don't move at all with 5 bars and the bars spread, drop to 4 bars. never go less than 4.

with my 16" rack, 6 bars, I dropped fantastic pit, 586 (lots of rope weight) most of the way on 5 bars with the rope between my legs, not over my hip. that went a LONG way to eliminating drag and getting started on that long drop. Half way down or so I had to switch to 6 bars as I was going too fast with all the bars pressed up to slow me down.

That being said, I use no spacers and I never have.

[chh]

Somewhere among the glued together sentances I also gleaned a question about tube style devices. Don't use them for caving, they don't really belong. A steel chain link or a good old fashion munter should be your fall back.

But seriously, buy a book. It might cost as much as one of the devices you are considering using and you will save money and time by attaining knowledge. I recommend "Alpine Caving Techniques". It's shorter, smaller, and I think cheaper than "On Rope" and if you are using a frog system it contains everything you need to know. Choose "On Rope" if you are more familiar with ropewalking systems. There's good general information in both of them though.

Before you start pushing the boundaries of what is commonly held to be the correct way of doing things, make sure you can, without thinking, do them this way. THEN start pushing at the boundaries. Not the other way around.

And fix your computer, cause dang, I can't even bring myself to read a third of what you post. There might even be a good question in there, but we'll never know....

[NZcaver]

Folks - safety advice is certainly warranted, but let's try to avoid the personal insults.

Muskrat - there is no reason why caving cannot be a voyage of personal discovery for you... while ALSO learning from others who know the caves and/or are more experienced in safe vertical techniques. And the right books. Most of us do the same thing. I teach vertical techniques and lead trips, but I also enjoy learning from others and being on trips lead by other people. Especially in caves I'm not familiar with.

Regarding the readability of your posts. We are not the spelling/grammar/paragraph police here, but... it's VERY difficult for the average person to understand your posts without some spacing and paragraph structure. Please consider adding a space after each comma and period, and perhaps some apostrophes and a little more capitalization. Also try hitting the enter button twice after every 3 to 6 lines to delineate paragraphs. I doubt the problem is malicious spyware. Are you previewing your post before submitting it? There's probably a setting in your browser which enlarges the text to make it more easily readable as you type. Perhaps that will help.

I've added some punctuation to your last post as an example.

You are seeing something I am not seeing. Is there a disconnect here? There may be a problem I have to get windstream to check on because the problems you describe are not present here. Paragraphs, sentences, are well spaced. But, if it is something I am doing, maybe not hitting the space bar hard enough or what not, I need to know because this is symptomatic of malicious spyware. It is curious, because this is the only site I have any feedback from. On the other hand, I am now 50. Eyesight is diminishing. Patience diminished a long time ago. Intellectual capacity to care is occurring NOW.

Now, ''hook up with someone experienced''. One of my paddling buddies has been involved in caving for more than 25 years. He issued Jesus his NSS numbers. If I chose to, I would ask him whatever questions I want. There is no one with more experience than he has. I am not interested in that, nor am I really sure I care about being in a grotto. Cliques kill independence, and independence insures fun. My friends and I are our own mini grotto. We have gone into pits now with zero knowledge of what lies beyond the edge. No maps, no idea how deep it is, nothing. Just going in blind. Thats 90% of the fun. Those were the days. I have evolved.

Now, we have maps and a little knowledge. This does not diminish the thrill at all. As a matter of fact the days of dropping into a hole just for fun are almost gone. Let me tell you self reliance is the key, and since there is safety in numbers grottos may kill that self reliance. Every one of us is aware that if he runs into trouble he had best handle it. Yes, rescue may be there, but you must behave as if that just is not so, for the truth is... it may not be. Self styled elitists evoke nothing but pure empathy from me.

Onward. How does the atc compare to the rack? There are a lot of high dollar toys out there. All of which are basically a spin on something already in use. Look at the newest 8's out there. Bizarre things. Rock exotica I believe makes the ears to the side. Thats awesome. But we are talking about the simple, lightweight trango pyramids, etc. The rack, to me has as its primary feature; the ability to have variable friction. LETS COMPARE ATTRIBUTES. Trango, dual purpose. Belay and rappel. Can the same be said for the rack? You going to lead a 5.8 on belay by a rack?

The rack can handle > diameters of rope easier than the ATC. My 12mm Blue water can not fit through one of the apertures. Nor does it work at all on a grigri. So, the rack can handle large ropes. Only one (1) UIAA rated single rope at a time. You all are familiar with UIAA numbers. The ATC can handle 2 UIAA single ropes. So, that daunting drop? Run 2 ropes through for greater friction. Unfortunately, you will be stuck with that until the bottom. And this my friends, leads me to the point. Reverse the ATC. This is why it has 2 different size apertures. I know this because I have trusted my life to the atc for many many years (the 8 is even better still).

What's the normal dynamic rope? Used to be 10.5mm.Thats hella funny. Sterling came out with a ''radical'' 9.8 a ways back. Used to be, the rope length was 145'. Hella funny as well. Someone had the idea of pushing that out to 160 and greater. Point being, the established norm is not the best route to go. Ideally, a stance would be from 165' to the next. Safeguarding against fall factor 2 on the way. Yes kids, there is a hell of a lot experience here, so before you snipe... don't shoot yourself in the foot first. Now, the rack weighs a ton. The ATC, an ounce. Theres talk of the rack works well in ice. I would not know that. Insufficient experience there. I can tell you from 1st hand experience my devices do not work well in bad conditions. Glaciers are problematic. That's what variable friction is all about. That's why on a device like the atc, (2) 11mm ropes run thru the small apertures will work.

Understand you cannot deduct for drag. Just like the problem I ran into, the friction on my rack was way too much. Rope way too supple too. I like this rack. Can see its potential. When I first bought it, I used it on my 75' 11mm PMI. PMI makes 2-3 styles of rope, yes? Max wear, sport, pit. This 11mm is very rigid. Almost like a cable. So, when we first started out in this ''caving thing'' the drops were small. No problems existed with the rack. Next, came a little more depth. This brought out my other PMI, 9mm 150'. This rope is way different from the other. It's soft, can make knots. It bends. Due to the diameter of this rope, makes for fast rappels. I had no problems with this rope, had no need for spacers. Not sure I would want them.

This brings us to the finale. The longest I have in static, is 220'. It is the BW. This is where the problems began. Currently, I doubled the spacers. There is greater space between the top bar and number 2. I may do away with this. I know now that it is safe on 4 bars. And if i gain too much speed, add a bar. It's easy. Let me tell you though. I really did hang there on the lip of the ledge bouncing on the rope to get moving. I was pissed. ''Expensive p.o.s.'' Toss it like a frisbee. Who the f$# needs this? Really.

[puffadder]

Do your cursors flicker wildly? Is this normal? I am going to take NZ cavers advice and double space everything. I did so want to elaborate on ''elitists last nite, but chose not to because this isn't the forum for that. IT IS NOW. Remember what I said about sniping? Make that shot count. This is what an elitist is. Their way or not at all. They are the ones who forecast doom ,if you do not follow their little rules. Elitists have the attitude that they know best. Elitists like to use that word a lot.. They are all phony. Elitists and their followers are cultists. I do not care for them. With that said,and before I give a few very point specific details,I do need to elaborate. I consider ''elitists'' to be extremely pompous. and very very dangerous. There are sub cults within every organization-I run from them.Lets see, ''buy on rope'' when the 1st edition of on rope came out, approx 1987, I was in Italy. 2 -3 yrs later My wife got me a copy when we redeployed from Panama.-. I have been prussiking since the late 70's,and most of it done overseas.In such places as France, Italy, Germany.This is where the 509th parachute infantry was. Stateside, mainly Yakima forest,and a lesser degree .Alaska, NC, Mass, Vt Me...Now,I come from a battalion most people consider ''elite''. You would never hear a ranger in battalion say that..Its crock.There were those who would look down their nose at ''lesser forms'', and that my friends is nothing more than false arrogance.. However, I will say this. Unless you have that experience,you have shit to squak about. So [CENSORED] off with any lecture about elitism,I know who the [CENSORED] they are.I will not be lectured to from any desk whore.. We do not carry specialized gear, and use carabiner chains/brake bars for all purposes. Glacier travel,crevasse rescue,REEVES litter raising and lowering.Usage of the Bachmann,Klemheist,the newer autoblock,munter hitch,munter mule,Used them all at one time or another. Later, my friends and I used to go to Linville gorge . So in the 80's - we were using every rappel device within reach when off duty or not deployed. - I have had that 1st edition now for more than 20 yrs. Longer than some of you have been alive.. I frog, and have done so for many many yrs..However, the deeper the commitment is to this ''caving thing'',the more I am inclined to eventually move towards the ropewalker,2 bungee set up. And for this,I will seek out qualified,competent instructions from the local grotto... Let me say something more because I truly enjoy this. My secondary mos was medic. I became a paramedic and cross qualified into high angle and confined space rescue.Who are you to say what you say? An elitist. Piss off. This is what an elitist is...American whitewater types. Deem it upon themselves to reclassify rapids or entire rivers.They did this to the Chatooga,LRC,and many others.. Who are you? ''You should'nt run Tallulah unless you can catch micro eddies in Jawbone and corkscrew''. For real. Here's this little piss ant passing on words of wisdom. I have been paddling for many years and I still cant catch micros in corkscrew. Nor do I want to. I have seen it done,and those guys are very competent and self assured.. Self reliant. I have done Tallulah. and choose never to go back. Elitists are the types who show up at the local crags and spout off. Doesnt matter to me if they truly can out perform every one else. The idea here is to have fun, not be critiqued by you.. Elitists.- Suck. I paddle with a guy who is high up in the GCA and he quit asking me to join. Why should I? Does joining it guarantee I won' t drown ? Nope. As a matter of fact, in 2004 I was classified as near drowning in hydraulic/submerged tree entrapment.. Do I need the AW or gca or whomever to have fun paddling?- Of course not. It's more fun with friends. -Sign up and you are subject to their rules. The access fund,the NRA,The God awful Natl registry thugs, any club, has its mentality and within that club can be found the self described ''elitits''. These folks are a major turn off. You can now see them at Sand rock. They are a new sub set. Elitists can also state that their tools are the chosen tools set forth by God. Thou shalt not cave without a rack. Whoops... way too late for that. Relax, I too believe in the rack It just happens that I have been messing around with the other toys for 30 yrs. There are no questions on the ATC. I am not asking any questions about the tube types. Know this, not all tubes are reversible or multi functional such as The Trango..etc. I am making comparisons. What I find to be amazing is..In all the places I have been, I never saw the rack. Ever. Only here.. My friends think the view on the rack is hype. Mabey it is, but I don't think so.. It IS a specialized tool.Made for caving. The other devices can't claim the same. My main attack here has been on versatility. Do not misinterpret. I am ok with those guys using what they use but there will come a time when it is no longer feasible.. Ask someone such a YOSAR volunteer what happens when a guy tries to rappel El Cap on a figure 8.. Again, It can be done. It has been done and there has been death. Something like this does not dissipate heat and truly can burn right thru the rope.. There is true passion here. People come forth and defend their turf.. This is a very very good thing.Marduke, I wont lie, after reading what you said I had a spout of anger. Trust me, that has long passed. Grottos are not the target..I can always use more knowledge, and the chase for experience never ends. .The rack..You are preaching to the newly converted brothers. Yes, it has given me problems of late,after reading some of your wisdoms, I removed those silly spacers. . Here is something for you now though. Years ago, I used to drive by p johns on my way to the lost wall . I never saw the fascination in this ''caving thing''. As a matter of fact..you silly little things,play in your holes, and leave us be.. I met a new friend.Jeff Wingo. He did like caving, he was a true ''cross dresser''. One day,Jeff and I went to Rocktown. Of course the ultimate in elitists were there. I am not talking about boulderers. They had not developed/destroyed that area yet.. Long, long before the current impositions laid down by the forest service.. No, these elitists were called '' The Challenge rock climbing school''. My natural enemies. They had top ropes set up all over the place and deemed it necessary to critique everybody else. I am pretty outspoken when need be, and there was a a very powerful showdown. It got ugly,and that was fu#$ cool. Jeff and I became tight. The last time I saw him alive,he belayed me when I was on clodhopper. Not long after,he died in a serac collapse out west.. Always value the spirit of adventure. As if you are the first there. Sometimes operating with no beta is fun. I asked my friends if they wanted someone with experience to lead us in on a certain pit. The answer was a resounding no.. We wanted to do it ourselves. We have. Time after time. The down side is, there are destinations down there we know nothing about. Grottos do.. So yes, I value their knowledge and experience.. K?? WE COOL? I mistrust the ones I call ''Grotto Nazis''.I want to kill this topic.But I do wonder, what would a girl think of this SRT thing as big boys thing? That, my friends is pure elitism.and its pretty laughable. PS, Do you belong to NASAR? I did.I was a volunteer search and rescue.Never dare to presume another [CENSORED] thing about me. And nasar is an elitist clique. This is not aimed at everyone.Thats what artillery is for.This is well placed shots K?? Final thoughts on this..That SAR team having to drop into the pit to rescue my dead and broken body, is what the [CENSORED] they live for.. They are not elite.They are specialized, and you are mistaken to think that the same conditions that take me out ,they will ''bravely'' go into. Do not be absurd. The 1st rule is .. what? Scene safety.. an avalanche just took out a bunch of skimobilers. Do you actually think,the airforce PJ'S will be jumped in to avalanche conditions? They will.They ARE elite. [CENSORED] off.

[gdstorrick]

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