another annoying rappel question??

[l lambert]

The most awesome rappel device would be the open sided whale tail. Of course it is hard to beat the Rappelstein. I guess this may qualify as an elitist post.

[Jagdmann]

Do your cursors flicker wildly? Is this normal? I am going to take NZ cavers advice and double space everything. I did so want to elaborate on ''elitists last nite, but chose not to because this isn't the forum for that. IT IS NOW. Remember what I said about sniping? Make that shot count. This is what an elitist is. Their way or not at all. They are the ones who forecast doom ,if you do not follow their little rules. Elitists have the attitude that they know best. Elitists like to use that word a lot.. They are all phony. Elitists and their followers are cultists. I do not care for them. With that said,and before I give a few very point specific details,I do need to elaborate. I consider ''elitists'' to be extremely pompous. and very very dangerous. There are sub cults within every organization-I run from them.Lets see, ''buy on rope'' when the 1st edition of on rope came out, approx 1987, I was in Italy. 2 -3 yrs later My wife got me a copy when we redeployed from Panama.-. I have been prussiking since the late 70's,and most of it done overseas.In such places as France, Italy, Germany.This is where the 509th parachute infantry was. Stateside, mainly Yakima forest,and a lesser degree .Alaska, NC, Mass, Vt Me...Now,I come from a battalion most people consider ''elite''. You would never hear a ranger in battalion say that..Its crock.There were those who would look down their nose at ''lesser forms'', and that my friends is nothing more than false arrogance.. However, I will say this. Unless you have that experience,you have shit to squak about. So [CENSORED] off with any lecture about elitism,I know who the [CENSORED] they are.I will not be lectured to from any desk whore.. We do not carry specialized gear, and use carabiner chains/brake bars for all purposes. Glacier travel,crevasse rescue,REEVES litter raising and lowering.Usage of the Bachmann,Klemheist,the newer autoblock,munter hitch,munter mule,Used them all at one time or another. Later, my friends and I used to go to Linville gorge . So in the 80's - we were using every rappel device within reach when off duty or not deployed. - I have had that 1st edition now for more than 20 yrs. Longer than some of you have been alive.. I frog, and have done so for many many yrs..However, the deeper the commitment is to this ''caving thing'',the more I am inclined to eventually move towards the ropewalker,2 bungee set up. And for this,I will seek out qualified,competent instructions from the local grotto... Let me say something more because I truly enjoy this. My secondary mos was medic. I became a paramedic and cross qualified into high angle and confined space rescue.Who are you to say what you say? An elitist. Piss off. This is what an elitist is...American whitewater types. Deem it upon themselves to reclassify rapids or entire rivers.They did this to the Chatooga,LRC,and many others.. Who are you? ''You should'nt run Tallulah unless you can catch micro eddies in Jawbone and corkscrew''. For real. Here's this little piss ant passing on words of wisdom. I have been paddling for many years and I still cant catch micros in corkscrew. Nor do I want to. I have seen it done,and those guys are very competent and self assured.. Self reliant. I have done Tallulah. and choose never to go back. Elitists are the types who show up at the local crags and spout off. Doesnt matter to me if they truly can out perform every one else. The idea here is to have fun, not be critiqued by you.. Elitists.- Suck. I paddle with a guy who is high up in the GCA and he quit asking me to join. Why should I? Does joining it guarantee I won' t drown ? Nope. As a matter of fact, in 2004 I was classified as near drowning in hydraulic/submerged tree entrapment.. Do I need the AW or gca or whomever to have fun paddling?- Of course not. It's more fun with friends. -Sign up and you are subject to their rules. The access fund,the NRA,The God awful Natl registry thugs, any club, has its mentality and within that club can be found the self described ''elitits''. These folks are a major turn off. You can now see them at Sand rock. They are a new sub set. Elitists can also state that their tools are the chosen tools set forth by God. Thou shalt not cave without a rack. Whoops... way too late for that. Relax, I too believe in the rack It just happens that I have been messing around with the other toys for 30 yrs. There are no questions on the ATC. I am not asking any questions about the tube types. Know this, not all tubes are reversible or multi functional such as The Trango..etc. I am making comparisons. What I find to be amazing is..In all the places I have been, I never saw the rack. Ever. Only here.. My friends think the view on the rack is hype. Mabey it is, but I don't think so.. It IS a specialized tool.Made for caving. The other devices can't claim the same. My main attack here has been on versatility. Do not misinterpret. I am ok with those guys using what they use but there will come a time when it is no longer feasible.. Ask someone such a YOSAR volunteer what happens when a guy tries to rappel El Cap on a figure 8.. Again, It can be done. It has been done and there has been death. Something like this does not dissipate heat and truly can burn right thru the rope.. There is true passion here. People come forth and defend their turf.. This is a very very good thing.Marduke, I wont lie, after reading what you said I had a spout of anger. Trust me, that has long passed. Grottos are not the target..I can always use more knowledge, and the chase for experience never ends. .The rack..You are preaching to the newly converted brothers. Yes, it has given me problems of late,after reading some of your wisdoms, I removed those silly spacers. . Here is something for you now though. Years ago, I used to drive by p johns on my way to the lost wall . I never saw the fascination in this ''caving thing''. As a matter of fact..you silly little things,play in your holes, and leave us be.. I met a new friend.Jeff Wingo. He did like caving, he was a true ''cross dresser''. One day,Jeff and I went to Rocktown. Of course the ultimate in elitists were there. I am not talking about boulderers. They had not developed/destroyed that area yet.. Long, long before the current impositions laid down by the forest service.. No, these elitists were called '' The Challenge rock climbing school''. My natural enemies. They had top ropes set up all over the place and deemed it necessary to critique everybody else. I am pretty outspoken when need be, and there was a a very powerful showdown. It got ugly,and that was fu#$ cool. Jeff and I became tight. The last time I saw him alive,he belayed me when I was on clodhopper. Not long after,he died in a serac collapse out west.. Always value the spirit of adventure. As if you are the first there. Sometimes operating with no beta is fun. I asked my friends if they wanted someone with experience to lead us in on a certain pit. The answer was a resounding no.. We wanted to do it ourselves. We have. Time after time. The down side is, there are destinations down there we know nothing about. Grottos do.. So yes, I value their knowledge and experience.. K?? WE COOL? I mistrust the ones I call ''Grotto Nazis''.I want to kill this topic.But I do wonder, what would a girl think of this SRT thing as big boys thing? That, my friends is pure elitism.and its pretty laughable. PS, Do you belong to NASAR? I did.I was a volunteer search and rescue.Never dare to presume another [CENSORED] thing about me. And nasar is an elitist clique. This is not aimed at everyone.Thats what artillery is for.This is well placed shots K?? Final thoughts on this..That SAR team having to drop into the pit to rescue my dead and broken body, is what the [CENSORED] they live for.. They are not elite.They are specialized, and you are mistaken to think that the same conditions that take me out ,they will ''bravely'' go into. Do not be absurd. The 1st rule is .. what? Scene safety.. an avalanche just took out a bunch of skimobilers. Do you actually think,the airforce PJ'S will be jumped in to avalanche conditions? They will.They ARE elite. [CENSORED] off.

Huh???

[puffadder]

Its been awhile since I have been on here. I had to seriously back off and regroup. Since the last time,and for the 1st time in my life,I am now on prescription glasses. 'Progressives''. This means I had no idea how truly blind I was.. Understand the last.Has a double meaning. before we go any further..I use the rack now without spacers. If need be,its a simple thing of add or subtract friction.Took off the top bar,added hyperbar. Have begun using rope walker. The more involved we get,the greater the understanding..Onwards. If I were to back off and look at myself through your eyes..how would I see me? Antaganostic toward authority? Yes. Hostile? Can be. . Friendly? If you are. Naive? Quite possibly. Listen,there is an an unGodly amount of experience out there.And If I were you,listening to someone challengeing the system and the rules.I would get pissed.Are you? If so,you took the bait. What is an Elitist?? The epitome,the crown glory of all elitism and its followers,the pinnacle of territorial guardedness..is those who enforce the concept of qualifications/certifications. I.e. someone else does the deciciding for you. . This directly opposes the self determination of any one individual with the drive to explore.The most direct definition might be;elitists deny your own self judgement. . Preference of a certain device,really does not come close. If you want to use a whaletail..use it..by all means.use whatever you are comfortable with. The elitist takes the view,that''you should not use that device''.Never mind the fact that you have used that device down rock/ice walls several thousand feet .repeatedly.No,that doesnt even come into play. . .Doesn't the very idea of some other person or organization qualifying you as to your own capabilities make you sick? If it doesnt..I'm sorry ..you are a sheep. You should get offended. Who are these clowns that decide what you are capable of doing or not? Elitists. There is a rumour circulating around about a local organization,imposing qualifications . And they have the gall to ask for donations. Pretend,if you can,one day you go off to your favourite pit,but lo and behold.there is a sign, whatever..telling you,you shan't proceed unless you have met the following criteria. You have not.what does this mean? it means that those who set the standards just prevented you from using your own self judgement. . An example,lets say that tommorow you wake up and think''I'm going to Ranier'' So,you pack. Off you go. 2 spoons.Thats it.you are an absolute minimalist.and a soloist. but the rangers have a different plan for you.When you get to Ranier and tell them you are going to Liberty Ridge,out comes the checklist. Right off the bat,you dont qualify.. No one get off on the argument about rescue.Thats a different subject,.sign a waiver.pay user fees.many places around the world put user fees to rescue.Anyway.Even if you think you can climb ice with spoons,someone else deems that you cant.despite the fact that its been done before.. What you think...simply does not matter. You may pay the price.Many throughout history have. Everest. Back in the 30's after Mallory and Irvine had dissappeared on the North side. There was a man,who bought a plane. Couldnt fly worth his life,but flew on,crashed onto a glacier and proceeded to climb.Ok,he died. Most of that ilk do. Some view them as crazy,others view this type of persona as bold.. Sometimes the crazies prove the norm wrong.And that upsets the delicate balance of elitists. Despite any given qualification''are you certified'' someone is ready to disprove you.Nowhere in this discussion is private property mentioned.. Thats because ,no matter what,you will respect that owners wishes.. I believe in that.. Thats not what this is about..You go off to say,little river canyon. Isnt it your choice as to what you think you can safely handle? yes it is.However,and this should get approval from nay sayers-the folks with you would be highly negligent if certain things werent pointed out.. Consequences of failure can be deadly.Is it worth it? Only you,the one facing this can make that decision.. Ultimately,your own experience,the voice in your head (which sometimes gets suppressed), and the adrenaline all have a say.. Now can you imagine the same scenario,except at the put in''you should not run this,unless you have done the tsangpo in winter at flood,and swam lava''.Far fetched ,but this is the kind of guidelines elitists want to impose upon you.. We took a kid to the Chatooga.Let me tell ya,he was a rookie..but he had the drive,and the nerve. .Could not roll %50 of the time. When we got to the Bull,it was getting dark,and we got out above it to look. We pointed out the routes and this kid said ''I want to do it''. Its our obligation to try to talk sense into him,but there it ends.. The kid went back upstream,sealed up his skirt,and ran into double drop head on in water 1.7 .Not only did he prove us all wrong,he went on to become world class.I am trying really hard here to emphasize the need to grow,and the only way one can ever ,ever do that,is to go that next step. .So,to accuse me of disdain for grottos really is absurd. Get in with the right group,there is nothing like it.. I totally resent preachiness.. I value knowledge,and listen to you,however,the same can not be said of the inverse. Know why? elitists are not only blind,they are deaf to everyone but themselves.Thats what false arrogance does.. I am not interested in the one who has dropped el horrendo a thousand times,then donned scuba and pushed the next level. I am way more interested in the kid,who is terrified of doing his 1st 15'. They are on here,asking for assistance..and none of you give it. Unbelievable.truly borders on snobbery. That kid looking at 15' doesnt want to hear the universal cry''join a grotto'' He's asking for someone to take him under his wings.. . I am convinced,people who are not in grottos,are outsiders,and are trespassing on sacred ground. Totally ignored by the deaf ears of the elite.. I dare you to deny that. Now go to a climbing site. ask for help.no one there will say ''join a club'' .They will say,lets meet. .Or you may hear, ''You probably can't do that route'', You have to be able to do an overhead heel hook over the left ear with your right ankle,then dino that 30'. If you cant do that,you're not ready.. Can anyone identify the persona I just described? He's the trip leader on the pit you want to drop.

[puffadder]

Many,many people will get ticked off by the last thing I posted. That simply means they fall within the elitist clique..Many independent minded people will see it for what it is, its an attack against those who supress individualism.. Certifications in certain aspects are necessary thing. For instance,the differences between emt-b,emt-i, and paramedics. Or rescue. Rescue is a huge concept.. Who is ready right now,to be an incident commander? Normally,one would would have to go through progressions. rescue tech I ,ii,etc.. if the bridges at perimeter collapsed.This would be an MCI, ..your grandma having a heart attack,may not be saved. Know why? Because that bridge collapse took this county,and all others to assist,and each ambulance can only handle safely 2.. And there you are. This is your show. Right or wrong,you do what you deem you have to. Later,critics will shred you apart..Elitists have the above average critic gene. . The critics will tear at you in . The deaths could have been prevented,he crossed the line..he did not stop at his limitations. . It is this last one..know your own limits,that define who you are,and what you are capable of doing.. Its when you dare challenge your limits,the ire forom those who know best come to light.. There is a wide line here,between your self judgement and utter total fooishness. It really is the obligation of others to point out the obvious..but there it stops.The decision making process begins with,knowing your limits-and asking YOURSELF, ''Am I ready''. It is also my obligation to learn as much as I possibly can,don't you think? I mean after all,who in their right mind would challenge conventional wisdom-and dare to see if the world truly is flat?The cultural elite during the dark ages were the heirarchy in the religion of the day. Imagine where we would be if society did not listen to them? we would be 400 or more years ahead of where we are now.. If a pit has say,multi drops and traverses,and waterfalls,you have to ask yourself''can i do this''. This is the natural right of others around you to point out ''you have never done anything this committing before''. I ask you,what is the correct answer here? look forward to hearing from you.Its all good.ps..if you ever are an incident commander,thats not a f%$$ democracy. .your word is Gods'. You are responsible for what happens and what doesnt happen..full blown field triage is not where its at.

[Cavernuke]

Many,many people will get ticked off by the last thing I posted. That simply means they fall within the elitist clique..

Wall 'o text. Please learn how to edit your rambles.

[tncaver]

Many,many people will get ticked off by the last thing I posted. That simply means they fall within the elitist clique..

Wall 'o text. Please learn how to edit your rambles.

I'm retired and I didn't even want to take the time to read all those long boring rambles. They are just toooooooooo........looonnnnnggggg.
eyecave would be proud of me.

[Tenzin Beck]

[Anonymous_Coward]

Many,many people will get ticked off by the last thing I posted.

No they won't. Very, very few people will actually read it. For those that do, very few of them will understand it.

Why do you show such disdain for people that are trying to listen and help you? Every wall o' text that you post is like a slap in the face. Your posts are interminable.

Just call me a grammar elitist.

[self-deleted_user]

There sometimes needs to be a "like" button. I would say "Ponies" but only Tenzin and I will get that reference.

[Amazingracer]

Many,many people will get ticked off by the last thing I posted.

No they won't. Very, very few people will actually read it. For those that do, very few of them will understand it.

Why do you show such disdain for people that are trying to listen and help you? Every wall o' text that you post is like a slap in the face. Your posts are interminable.

Just call me a grammar elitist.

Upvote for Andy.

I made it a few lines in before realizing not only were there no carriage returns but it didnt make sense.

Im sure if it was reposted as logical text, we would be more than happy to address what you are trying to convey or ask.

[l lambert]

I, like many..have a pretty long history of rappelling and climbing on trad routes..Having said this,since 1979 ,I have always had high regard for the rescue 8..Love the ability to lock off in midstream.the 8 can handle pretty much all diameters,etc..But ya know,the passion for the 8 kind of gave way to my next favourite device.The atc.I think the atc is superior in almost every way to the 8.has a better control factor.,can handle multi ropes,is reversible,can be used as a belay.cool huh? ?

Dude must be a rock climber. Rock climbers and rappelling, dangerous combo! Thor is closed by such hijinks. Please put down and step away from the rappel device.