Labeling Bolts

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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby tncaver » Feb 24, 2012 7:59 pm

Extremeophile wrote:Any caver that would sue another caver for their own incompetence is hereby forbidden from using my anchors. By the same reasoning any landowner that lets someone enter their cave should expect to get sued. I prefer to do the right thing, and by havng a label and log of fixed anchors and ropes we can make better educated decisions in the future about rigging needs.


Extremeophile, I think you need to put what you just said on your bolt tag. Good luck. All cavers aren't wonderful. There are some who
lie, cheat and steal. Rare I hope but none the less proven. Some cavers might not be as experienced or as good a person as you are.
That is why there is crime in our world and also lawyers. I suggest you protect yourself but I know how stubborn cavers are. Best of luck. :bat sticker:
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby NZcaver » Feb 24, 2012 8:22 pm

Use a fictitious name or code instead of a real name, or just leave the name off the tag. I despise sue-happy idiots, but I suppose it is an unavoidable fact of life in the US.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby cavemud2 » Feb 24, 2012 8:26 pm

BrianFrank wrote: Of course if a bolt fails in the future, that is the fault of the user for not testing/checking it out.


Is there a certain way or certain steps to test a bolt before you rig it other than checking the nut or to see if it is loose and spins? Should you use a bolt that spins? Im not real real familliar with bolt drops. Just want to know how to do em safely.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby Scott McCrea » Feb 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Yup, just the facts (date, type, size, etc), but no names. Cavers don't sue. But, family members do.

Cavemud2: If there is something that is not perfect about a bolt, I would get a second (experienced) opinion before using it.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 25, 2012 9:42 am

After further reflection I think I'll be substituting the anchor database ID number in place of installer name on the label going forward. The database includes much more information, including the installer, but being able to link the anchor back to the database seems more important in-cave information, and there isn't room for both on the tag. The database includes additional information like the rated strength of the bolt, hanger and maillon, installation torque, photo of anchor, schematic of pitch, relation links to the rope and cave databases, etc.

I understand that liability is a concern, but I don't spend a lot of time or energy worrying about the mistakes others might make, and how I can avoid blame under a bunch of hypothetical circumstances. I frequently take other people rock climbing, whitewater rafting, canyoneering, backcountry skiing and occasionally caving. Once, many years ago, following advice from a friend, I made people sign a liability waiver before taking them on a private rafting trip. It felt ridiculous and I haven't done this since. Maybe I'm a little too trusting or naive, but I'm going to continue to take people on trips, give them advice on their vertical systems when they ask, and place the best possible fixed anchors I can. Maybe down the road, once I've defended these irresponsible acts in court a few times, I'll post advice on Cavechat to others telling them not to take responsibility for anything.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby Yahtaa » Feb 25, 2012 10:14 am

As a conservation/safety issue, regarding bolts, I've seen a few times people in a cave will remove the older loose/cave damaged bolts, citing that it will keep novice users from utilizing them and having accidents. 1) Is this proper? 2) If so, if an anchor database is available, and the anchor is tagged, then removed anchors could be returned to their owner/group alerting them to the fact a bolt needs replacing.

In this respect I can see why labeling would be helpful. That, and I feel, when I see bolts labeled by grotto's with great reputations my mind is at ease with using them.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby PeterFJohnson » Feb 25, 2012 4:22 pm

BrianFrank wrote:Taking responsibility is something that is disappearing with each new generation.


As a member of a "newer" generation I take exception to this generalization.

Extremeophile wrote:... and how I can avoid blame under a bunch of hypothetical circumstances...


Derek,

Are you sure you don't want to rethink it and make safety and rigging decisions based on what lawyers think?

Extremeophile wrote:After further reflection I think I'll be substituting the anchor database ID number in place of installer name on the label going forward
[/quote]

I like the database ID as well since it theoretically links all the rigging information together in one place. Seems to me that the rope, not the bolt/anchor is the likely candidate to fail first. And at that point, with replacement gear installed at different points in time, you start having record keeping that is a little more complicated than a steel tag can handle. Perhaps labeling ropes is a good idea as well.

But the question gets raised, how do you ensure that the database information is available to those that need it? A cryptic number isn't much use if the person doesn't know how or where to link it to. Or is the assumption that the database is simply for those who have volunteered as rigging stewards? After all they are ultimately the ones insuring the integrity of the rigging.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby Extremeophile » Feb 25, 2012 8:52 pm

But the question gets raised, how do you ensure that the database information is available to those that need it? A cryptic number isn't much use if the person doesn't know how or where to link it to. Or is the assumption that the database is simply for those who have volunteered as rigging stewards? After all they are ultimately the ones insuring the integrity of the rigging.

Certainly a good question, and one we haven't addressed yet. My first thought is that anchor and rope information isn't something that needs to be kept a secret, so we could put the database on a server and link to it from Grotto, CCS or CCRN websites. I'm sure someone will point out why this also needs to be carefully guarded and only shared with those doing the rigging.
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Re: Labeling Bolts

Postby caverdoc » Mar 12, 2012 12:58 am

I hope that everybody is using a good primary anchor, like a jughandle or a bombproof tree at the top of a pit, and these bolts are just intermediate hangers! All good ideas about labelling, and especially using stainless hardware. I remember doing Carpenter's-Swago back in the 70's and it looked like a bolt farm at the top of every drop. In such a cave it would be nice to remove the old, skanky bolts and place a single/pair of stainless steel bolts everybody could feel confident in.
Just my $0.02!
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