Compact third ascenders - opinions & experience

[Jeff Bartlett]

I am planning to purchase a compact "extra" ascender for my standard SRT rig. In the past, I have carried a Tibloc and Petzl Attache on my left gear loop for use as an emergency ascender (and I carry the Attache anyway for use as an emergency munter carabiner), but I'd like to purchase something more versatile and a bit less.... toothy. I'm willing to deal with the obvious "weight penalty" by switching to a third mechanical ascender, so I am considering the following options:

1.Petzl Microcender
2.Kong Duck

Requirements:

1. Compact (Microcender almost fails this automatically, as it weighs more than my Petzl Basic).
2. Usable on really, really muddy rope where the Petzl-style toothed-cam ascenders start bitching and whining.
3. Won't damage the rope in the event of a shockload
4. Can be safely used for progress capture in a simple haul system
5. Functions without being accompanied by specific gear (like how the Tibloc requires a round-cross-section carabiner)

Does anyone have experience with, or opinions of, either of these devices? Do these meet the listed best-case requirements? Am I missing another obvious option? I rarely need a third ascender, but would like to have something versatile for this option when I do, and carrying another toothed ascender fails items 2 and 3 on that list. I would be willing to consider Wild Country Ropeman MK2 (not MK1), but this device isn't necessarily designed for caving and as such I am wary. I consider the Petzl Shunt to be too large to qualify here.

I've never tried the Duck or Microcender, so I humbly approach the board! I'd also be curious to hear if anyone has tried to use either in place of a damaged Croll, which sounds like it might be "interesting" at best.

PS: First person to respond with "Just use a prusik, you slacker" gets flamed!

[Scott McCrea]

PS: First person to respond with "Just use a prussik, you slacker" gets flamed!

Dang.

Anything you replace a Croll with will be horribly inefficient. A Croll is best replaced with another Croll. Dan Henry uses a Croll for his upper that also acts as a back-up. It is relatively easy to replace an upper.

Why are you worried about this? Have you had problems? Do you know of problems? Keep the cam closed when off rope and they are pretty bomber.

[NZcaver]

PS: First person to respond with "Just use a prussik, you slacker" gets flamed!

Damn, I was just about to suggest that when I saw your note. Now you can flame me for reminding you that prusik is - and always has been - spelled with only one "s".

I primarily use a frog system, so of course there's technically no real need for a third ascender. However just for kicks I usually carry a Tibloc, a prusik loop or two, and an extra locking carabiner and small maillon rapide. Between the Prusiks and the Tibloc, I can do pretty much everything on your list. I own a couple of microcenders and they're good pieces of kit, but I don't recommend them for your needs. I'm not familiar with the Kong Duck, but it seems a bit like the Wild Country Ropeman. I had one of those a while back, but didn't find it useful so I got rid of it. As a piece of personal SRT kit, I prefer to avoid lever cam ascenders primarily because they're a little more fiddly to attach and remove while on rope. Yes, I know the Tibloc is too. The regular Petzl Basic is another option, but that's got teeth too.

Have fun.

PS I agree with Scott that a Croll or equivalent knock-off is the best replacement for a damaged/lost Croll.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Jeff Bartlett]

....and yes, I've tried the Microcender, and the Duck

...and? No opinion?

[ek]

PS: First person to respond with "Just use a prussik, you slacker" gets flamed!

Damn, I was just about to suggest that when I saw your note. Now you can flame me for reminding you that prusik is - and always has been - spelled with only one "s".

It is also capitalized, at least when used as a noun or adjective.

[Marduke]

Beyond a prusik, there are the RBS, hedden, and bachmann knots. I find them all easier to use than a prusik, both in deployment and use. However, they are not bi-directional, which is not a big deal when replacing a mechanical ascender vs a prusik.

[wyandottecaver]

I dunno if it's "compact" enough for you and it is toothed, but I have used CMI "Ultra Mini" Ascenders. They are quite rugged, deal with mud/snow like a champ and are just as sturdy as a full size ascender. and with the single exception of not having a "handle" do everything a regular ascender can, and in some cases more. Yes, a croll is better in many cases (a chest attachment), but the little CMI's are far more applicable to a wider range of applications, particularly rigging IMHO.

PS: I use the full size CMI Ascenders as my main rig (Petzl's just look so flimsy, and I'm a stout feller) and I have literally climbed them when they were "mudballs" as well as on icy ropes with no problem.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[chh]

I'll only deviate slightly from the "use a knot" crowd and say that instead of an additional ascender you should carry instead a length of cord for your preferred knot AND a micro pulley. If you rig an "eye to eye" ascending knot and use the pulley to help advance it it gives you a little something to hold onto. Just as much as with any of the micro-ascenders anyway, with the added benefit of not having to break the knot with every stroke. The pulley does it for you. Also, the pulley or pulley-hitch combination can be used for a very wide variety of other tasks. I use a VT or just a plain old 6 wrap with the eye-to-eye with great success with this particular set up.
In my opinion the greater the number of uses an "extra" piece of anything has, the greater the likelyhood that you may, in fact, need to carry it at all....
All that being said, I've used the microcender and think it's a nice little piece of gear but I've never used it for ascending. Only for and adjustable attachment point for a lanyard. But as has been pointed out, it's heavy for it's size and it takes two hands to install, thus ruling it out in my book over other options, at least for caving.

[Anonymous_Coward]

If you rig an "eye to eye" ascending knot and use the pulley to help advance it it gives you a little something to hold onto. Just as much as with any of the micro-ascenders anyway, with the added benefit of not having to break the knot with every stroke. The pulley does it for you.

You need to "splain" more what you're talking about or post a picture. You have lost me and the rest of the learning impaired crowd.

[NZcaver]

If you rig an "eye to eye" ascending knot and use the pulley to help advance it it gives you a little something to hold onto. Just as much as with any of the micro-ascenders anyway, with the added benefit of not having to break the knot with every stroke. The pulley does it for you.

You need to "splain" more what you're talking about or post a picture. You have lost me and the rest of the learning impaired crowd.

Andy,

Caleb is talking about this:



I added the photo on the right to show where the pulley goes (click to enlarge the picture). Operating the VT with a pulley in there makes it real smooth! Try it. I forgot to mention I've often carried this along with my Prusik cord and Tibloc in my 'normal' caving setup for the last few years. Remember this topic?

[ek]

So....where does the pulley come into the picture?

EDIT: Sorry, for some reason the picture with the pulley didn't load. My bad.

EDIT PART TWO: Not your fault, Eliah. I posted the diagram first, and was tracking down the pulley photo to add when you posted your reply. You were too quick.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Operating the VT with a pulley in there makes it real smooth! Try it. I forgot to mention I've often carried this along with my Prusik cord and Tibloc in my 'normal' caving setup for the last few years. Remember this topic?

I get it now. Thanks NZ.

How could I forget THAT topic? Who started that anyway? I did recognize the VT diagram but did not realize that's what Caleb meant by eye to eye.

[NZcaver]

I get it now.

Great, Andy. Now we're seeing eye to eye [/bad pun]