using both ends of the rope

[graveleye]

Suppose I want to tie my rope to a BFT right in the middle (of the rope) and use both ends to climb and rappel? What is the best way to tie it off?

Probably a lame question, but I'm still new at this...

[ian mckenzie]

Throw a sling round the tree, then 'biner the sling to a figure eight in the middle of the rope.

Or tie each end to the tree, and throw the middle down the shaft.

[ek]

Or tie each end to the tree, and throw the middle down the shaft.

That can produce serious tangles.

I agree with the first method, though I'd prefer a wrap-3 pull-2 or something like that.

You can use a "triple bowline on a bight" (where you take a big bight, treat it as a single piece of rope, and tie a big bowline with it) to tie around a tree in mid-rope. You get two loops around the tree and one free loop as the "tail." Like with a bowline, you should secure that somehow. Since it's a loop, you can secure it by clipping it with a carabiner into the other loops.

This will slip down, unless you wrap twice while you're tying it. Then you have a "triple bowline on a bight on a coil."

But it uses way less rope and is less confusing to just rig with webbing and clip the rope to it in the middle with a figure-eight on a bight.

[Scott McCrea]

Depending on the situation, you could tie a clove hitch in the middle of the rope around the BFT.

[graveleye]

OK thanks for the information! I'm wondering also if I wrapped the tree a couple of times, then tied a figure 8 on a bight on each side of the rope near the wrap and then biner them together... would that be viable? I ask because the figure 8 is my best knot these days. I'm still learning the other stuff quickly, but that's the most dependable knot I have at present.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Chads93GT]

couldnt you do a high strength tie off in the middle of the rope?

[NZcaver]

I frequently rig by dropping both ends of the rope. You could do a HSTO in the middle by wrapping a bight around a BFT, and you might want to add a couple of extra wraps. That's probably the quickest/easiest way.

If you wrap the tree a few times because you want to maintain the maximum integrity of the rope, tying knots in the outgoing ends defeats this purpose. But in the real world this makes little difference because our ropes are plenty strong when knotted. I'd probably anchor with webbing instead, like Ian said. If you're putting a 2-rope/2-person load on one piece of webbing, takes Eliah's advice. Tie a W3P2, for maximum integrity and to make it easier to untie later. Two anchors are usually better than one (at least to separate the ropes), and you might want to tie a separate bight in the rope for each drop rather than a single for both. Easier to untie, too.

If you have more rope than you need for the drop, I'm a big fan of rigging ropes so they can be lowered under tension if there's a problem. Especially when doing beginner trips or rope practice. Drop one end of the rope until it touches the bottom, and rig it to the anchor via a locked-off Munter hitch. Do the same with the other end, tying into a second carabiner which is preferably connected to a second anchor to achieve rope separation.

Everything in vertical work is bad and nothing is safe. I love it.

"The only safe vertical caving is online vertical caving."

[ek]

If you wrap the tree a few times because you want to maintain the maximum integrity of the rope, tying knots in the outgoing ends defeats this purpose. But in the real world this makes little difference because our ropes are plenty strong when knotted.

And when you're rappelling or ascending on a rope, your connection to it is weaker than a knot. So rigging with a (appropriate) knot isn't just strong enough--it's as strong as rigging with a tensionless hitch / high-strength tie-off.

When you're pulling on the other end with something stronger than a knot then this changes, of course--that would happen in a highline rigged with two tensionless hitches / high-strength tie-offs.

[Marduke]

I've used mid-line rigs a number of times to use one end as a pigtail. This negates the effect of two close lines tangling, but I've also done it with both lines going over an edge about 10 feet apart on the lip, both ends going all the way to the bottom.

I've seen it rigged two ways:

-Take a bite of rope and tie a figure 8 on a bite, and wrap it around the tree several times and biner it to both standing lines, similar to a normal tensionless hitch.

-Like above, but also tie an alpine butterfly on each standing end directly next to the figure 8, and biner both alpines and the 8 together. This is supposed to keep one line from slipping and screwing up the whole arrangement, but if you do your tensionless hitch right I don't see how that would really be a problem anyhow.

[cavedoc]

Depending on the situation, you could tie a clove hitch in the middle of the rope around the BFT.

I like that! It's an elegant solution.

[shibumi]

Depending on the situation, you could tie a clove hitch in the middle of the rope around the BFT.

I like that! It's an elegant solution.

But then you'll get someone at TAG Fall Cave In who will rerig your rope for you while you are at the bottom of the pit because he thinks it's unsafe to have lines crossing over each other... BTDT, he's just lucky he wasn't still there when I got to the top.

I've also done it by clipping two butterflies together with a biner, and I've also done it by wrapping the rope three times around the tree and dropping both ends, no knot, no extra biner.

[chh]

I've also done it by clipping two butterflies together with a biner, and I've also done it by wrapping the rope three times around the tree and dropping both ends, no knot, no extra biner.

Ditto.

[ek]

Depending on the situation, you could tie a clove hitch in the middle of the rope around the BFT.

I like that! It's an elegant solution.

But then you'll get someone at TAG Fall Cave In who will rerig your rope for you while you are at the bottom of the pit because he thinks it's unsafe to have lines crossing over each other... BTDT, he's just lucky he wasn't still there when I got to the top.

That's bad.

But with a clove hitch...the culprit would have had to pull your rope (or at least one side of it) completely up out of the cave in order to rerig it, right? That's REALLY BAD!

Imagine if they had accidentally dropped the rope down the pit while doing you the "favor" of "correcting" your already-safe rigging. They'd have a fine time explaining that one...

[Chads93GT]

so you literally use the tree as a "giant caribiner" and tie a clove hitch around it, and thats it?